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Post by Phantom of London on Aug 26, 2018 16:02:17 GMT
I saw The King and I with my mum on Friday night, we very rarely go to the theatre, so can’t blame her for my obsession, but she loves The King and I and was very wax lyrical about it, that it’s the best musical they have written, I don’t agree as for me it has to be Carousel. But The King and I are still excellent, as are South Pacific, Oklahoma and The Sound of Music.
I have opened up the question to the board, to see what yours is? But have to concede it is like asking someone, what is their favourite chocalate bar like; Mars, Snickers, Kit Kat, Twix or Picnic, sure you have your favourite, but if I asked this question again in 2 months, it could change.
If the moderators would be happy to put it as a poll, that would be cool too?
So what is the greatest Rogers and Hammerstein musical?
You have the 5 greats;
Oklahoma - 1943
Carousel - 1945
South Pacific - 1949
The King and I - 1951
The Sound of Music - 1959
You also got lesser known musicals, such as;
State Fair (Film) -1945
Allegro - 1947
Me and Julliet -1953
Pipe Dream - 1955
Cinderella - 1957
Flower Drum Song - 1958
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Post by karina on Aug 26, 2018 16:08:15 GMT
Oklahoma! Probably biased because I have done it 3 times now so it holds a special place in my heart, but everything about it is fabulous
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Post by dontdreamit on Aug 26, 2018 16:23:27 GMT
For me it would be The Sound Of Music. When we got our first vhs recorder in the early 80’s, this is one of the first films we recorded and we watched it over and over and over again. I’ve seen it a few times at the theare and have loved it each and every time.
Although I’ve seen the films of all the greats, I do have a couple of gaps seeing them all the theatre and I do wonder if my favourite may change one I’ve seen them all live...
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Post by viserys on Aug 26, 2018 16:42:40 GMT
It's like picking your favorite child... I think "Carousel" is probably the deepest of their big musicals with fundamentally flawed leads rather than the usual "black and white"-painted characters that are either just good or just evil. I know the show gets a lot of stick these days for the line where Julie saying that being hit doesn't hurt at all, but I wouldn't dismiss a whole classic for one line that feels unacceptable today. And overall it IS a wonderful story about redemption and forgiveness on a very basic human level, a story that could be anytime and anywhere, while all the others are tied to their locations and times.
"The Sound of Music" is a classic like no other of their shows and the ultimate feelgood show. I did the Sound of Music Tour in Salzburg in January and what stood out to me was how the coach filled up with people from all over world - Chinese, Japanese, Australians, New Zealanders, Americans - that were all much younger than the movie itself and how they would all sing along when the driver played bits from the DVD on the coach system between stops - to see a cheesy old musical uniting all these people from all over the world just warmed my cockles.
"Oklahoma!" holds a special place in my heart because it was the very first musical I saw live - IN Oklahoma, the long-running (but now sadly closed) open-air-version at Discoveryland in Tulsa with genuine horses, carriages, etc. I read in an interview recently that Kelli O'Hara named that as her very first musical experience as well and I wanted to hug her.
"South Pacific" I appreciate for being way ahead of its time in how it tackled racism, but neither that nor "The King and I" feel as special as the other three. Would love to see South Pacific in London (or Broadway) though as I've only ever seen it on stage in German, and also the smaller ones.
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Post by sf on Aug 26, 2018 16:45:46 GMT
In terms of influence on how musical theatre developed since, probably 'Carousel' because of the bench scene.
(Yes I know a number of musical theatre history books point to Oklahoma! as The Musical That Changed Everything. A number of musical theatre history books are full of crap. The bench scene - that long-form seamless transition from dialogue to song and back - proved to be hugely influential.)
For my money, in terms of my personal taste, it's a toss-up between 'Carousel' and 'South Pacific'. My answer could be either or both, depending on the day.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 26, 2018 17:19:36 GMT
Controversially, I don't think any of them are 'great'
Some of them were for their time - but I think they are very much 'of their time'
Of the big 5, they all overstay their welcome in terms of running time. 3 of them have over-extended ballet sequences that I find very frustrating when viewed today.
I put most of the blame on the books - which would never be written that way today.
Rodgers wrote some amazing music. Hammerstein wrote some amazing lyrics. Together they created pieces that have endured - so that must point to something worthy of celebrating. But, for me, they no longer work on stage. Once they fall out of copyright, many of the shows will be taken apart and put back together into tauter forms that could hold my attention better.
I will continue to enjoy the scores in concert or extract form as there are some great sequences. But there is only one of their scores that I still want to see live on stage - and that is Cinderella (as the revisions for the recent Broadway revival seem to work really well)
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Post by The Matthew on Aug 26, 2018 17:34:23 GMT
For me it's a split between Carousel and Cinderella. It's a shame the latter is revived so rarely, and it's a particular problem in Britain because audiences will assume that it's a pantomime and go along expecting to cheer and boo.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 17:54:20 GMT
The Sound of Music. There's probably an argument for Carousel having a better score, but it's still great, with a more-than-solid book, and it's uncharacteristically unproblematic by contemporary standards when compared with other R&H musicals.
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Post by musicallady on Aug 26, 2018 18:40:27 GMT
Oklahoma. Done it three times as an amateur and loved every performance.
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Post by Mark on Aug 26, 2018 19:09:46 GMT
This is easy - the Whitney Houston and Brandi Cinderella.
Or The Sound of Music
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Post by Being Alive on Aug 26, 2018 19:45:21 GMT
I know that The Sound Of Music has stood the test of time and is the ‘big one’ but for me, it’s got to be Carousel. I think it’s their best score and that the story was so ahead of its time. It’s just special.
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Post by groupbooker on Aug 26, 2018 21:05:46 GMT
Having seen the NT's version of Carousel, which I think is one of the best I have seen. I wish they could release it on DVD! I also rate The King & I very highly - first show I saw on Broadway with Brynner. I also like Oklahoma and Cinderella. R&H's Cinderella was the very first panto put on in the Theatre Royal Plymouth when they opened. Lots of moans "its a musical not a panto" just because R&H was before the title but still filled it with the usual panto stuff!
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Aug 27, 2018 0:50:26 GMT
Carousel for reasons already stated above.
Of the ‘lesser’ shows I think Pipe Dream works well and has an excellent score, it’s more character driven rather than plot driven though. Allegro is a brave try but ends up not saying what it sets out to. Me and Juliet is really very dull, Cinderella simplistic and Flower Drum Song, although with a good score, is now embarrassing on the whole. State Fair, as a film, is pretty good though and the cobbled together nineties stage version is actually much better than it could have been. The film’s sixties remake was a misfire with Pat Boone playing a plank of wood but Ann Margret was great in it.
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Post by mistressjojo on Aug 27, 2018 2:39:31 GMT
Oklahoma for me.
Carousel has a wonderful score and characters, but the songs just don't stick with me so much.
And thanks for mentioning State Fair. Now I have that song stuck in my head....
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Post by Kenneth_C on Aug 27, 2018 5:08:51 GMT
Movie-wise, it would probably be The Sound of Music. I find the stage version to be immensely inferior. (Practically intolerable, in fact.)
On stage, I'd have to go with South Pacific, with Oklahoma and The King & I close behind. (I've never seen Carousel on stage, but I have real problems with that piece, despite it featuring some of my favorite R&H.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 9:25:25 GMT
'South Pacific'. 'nuff said.
So that's sorted. Next!
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Post by alison on Aug 27, 2018 11:12:19 GMT
Of the big five, the only one I haven't seen on stage is Oklahoma. If you forced me to choose I'd have a hard time picking between Carousel and South Pacific, you'd probably get a different answer on different days (not that I don't love The Sound of Music and The King and I).
I really adore Cinderella, though. I remember seeing the Tony performance of the "revival" and thinking I really wanted to see that, knowing it would never happen. Then my mum invited me to go with her on a transatlantic cruise with a couple of nights in New York since it wouldn't cost much more to take me than to go on her own, and let me sort out what we'd see at the theatre. Guess what the first thing we saw was. A glorious score that I could listen to over and over (and have), a rewritten book that manages to keep the essence of the Cinderella story while still working for a modern audience, and those costumes. I wish I could go back and see it again.
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Post by Dr Tom on Aug 27, 2018 14:13:51 GMT
My favourite changes regularly. I should probably give a tie between Carousel and The Sound Of Music, with The King And I only slightly behind.
But I do have a real soft spot for the recent (new book) revival of Cinderella. It's not as deep as some of the others, but has a certain magical quality that the other musicals just don't have, as well as a political plot which is very relevant today.
As I remember a child near me saying "that isn't what happens in Cinderella".
Disappointed that it never did transfer here, as it well on Broadway and toured for quite a while (Equity and non-Equity tours).
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Post by Mr Snow on Aug 27, 2018 17:05:57 GMT
I’m going to say Cinderella, as it’s the one i know nothing about and you’ve all convinced me🤗
Other than that it’s the latest one I’ve seen. TKAI at present.
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Post by danb on Mar 18, 2021 15:14:15 GMT
This is easy - the Whitney Houston and Brandi Cinderella. Or The Sound of Music I have just watched this on Disney +, and whilst not without it’s charms it was hardly full of classic tunes. When was it written because Arif Marden made all of the music seem very modern (or at least late 90’s sounding). |
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Post by FairyGodmother on Mar 18, 2021 15:26:29 GMT
The original is the Julie Andrews version (1957, my favourite), and there's a colour version with Lesley Ann Warren as well. I don't know why they never made it as a 'big' musical film.
I adore Ten Minutes Ago (although the song with all the Prince's names doesn't really do it for me). I actually prefer the Slipper and the Rose as a Cinderella musical — can I say that on this thread?!
Answering the original question, I have a very soft spot for State Fair (the earlier one, not the weird 60s one).
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Post by couldileaveyou on Mar 18, 2021 15:40:20 GMT
There aren't many better-written musical theatre moments than the bench scene from Carousel
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Post by Being Alive on Mar 18, 2021 16:00:10 GMT
Carousel for me...
The story may well be far from perfect, but the score is as close to perfect as there is. And like others have said, the bench scene is the ultimate story telling vehicle and love song.
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Post by theoracle on Mar 18, 2021 16:16:14 GMT
So my favourite is definitely The King and I - everything seems to just flow so well and plenty of cracking tunes. I absolutely loved LCT's production - Kelli O'Hara just the perfect Anna and in my opinion the premier interpreter of R&H as Bernadette Peters for Sondheim.
But in terms of greatest musical? I think there's a case for Sound of Music as that's had the most lasting impact on audiences and is probably still the best loved and most well-known among people today and I think really cemented the legacy of Rodgers & Hammerstein in a way which I think their prior work hadn't. But it depends on how you want to use the word "Great" as perhaps "academically" and "forensically" it probably is a toss up between Carousel and South Pacific. Completely agree with comments about the bench scene and I can't help but well up at the ending despite the implications around domestic abuse etc and of course SP is a Pulitzer Prize winner and Todd Purdum's comments about the show's opening in 'Something Wonderful' really illustrate the cultural impact the show had.
As you can tell I love Rodgers & Hammerstein and I think they're all "great" whatever great means. But yeah, a really interesting question and one I would be happy to discuss for hours and of course can't wait to see revivals once everything is open again.
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Post by barrowside on Mar 18, 2021 16:18:22 GMT
Carousel for me too. So moving, such flawed and complex characters and "If I loved you". I really love The King and I and South Pacific also.
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Post by ronsdivas on Mar 21, 2021 1:26:26 GMT
CAROUSEL is my first choice too. It was the first professional musical I did (I was Enoch Snow Jr)...so it remains dear to my heart.
Hopefully when this pandemic subsides....they are doing a new production of Carousel in Regents' Park this summer and Chichester has programmed South Pacific with Julian Ovenden. Wish we were as lucky here in NYC>
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Post by alittlefallofrain on Mar 21, 2021 2:46:24 GMT
If we were voting on score/songs alone I'd say Carousel without hesitation as I think that score is some of the most beautiful music ever recorded in history, but the story is so problematic it holds me back.
So if voting for a piece as a hole I think I'll say The Sound of Music.
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Mar 21, 2021 9:47:08 GMT
If we were voting on score/songs alone I'd say Carousel without hesitation as I think that score is some of the most beautiful music ever recorded in history, but the story is so problematic it holds me back. So if voting for a piece as a hole I think I'll say The Sound of Music. My thoughts exactly. Sound of Music for me is the most well-rounded R&H. Others of theirs have better scores for me but are let down by their books. |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Mar 21, 2021 11:01:10 GMT
Too difficult a question. Out of the ones I've seen I've liked them all, even Pipe Dream!
I have a soft spot for problem shows so Allegro up there.
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Post by alece10 on Mar 21, 2021 11:24:00 GMT
On film the only one I really like is The Sound of Music. The other films I am not that keen on.
But on stage my choice is completely different. I have seen Sound of Music a couple of times on stage, once with Petula Clarke back in the dark ages and then later at Regents Park and neither left a lasting memory.
But I do like the stage version of Oklahoma and South Pacific. I first saw Oklahoma at the NT with Hugh Jackman and Maureen Lipman, but the version that really stood out for me was more recently at The Proms. Absolutely loved hearing it with the massive John Wilson Orchestra and it was the first time I had seen Robert Fairchild perform, I so wish I had got to see him in An American In Paris.
Have only seen South Pacific once on stage which, again, was a long time ago at the NT. I think it had Phillip Quast in it. I am due to see the rescheduled performance later this year at Chichester with one of my favourite singers Julian Ovenden and I think someone mentioned on here the other day that Rob Houchen is also going to be in it so thats a double whammy.
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