5,596 posts
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Post by lynette on Feb 20, 2022 17:28:38 GMT
What’s going on with the loos? I’m seeing all sorts of complaints on twitter and in the papers but is this universal thru theatreland or just one or two places?
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Post by aingidh on Feb 20, 2022 18:14:27 GMT
York Grand Opera House an absolute nightmare the other day. Six toilets for all the men in the stalls and dress, leading to a queue a mile long. Apparently another set somewhere at the very top of the theatre but I don’t think many would want to trek all the way up there. I dread to see what the women’s queue would’ve been like.
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7,547 posts
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Post by alece10 on Feb 20, 2022 19:56:06 GMT
The loos at the refurbished Theatre Royal Drury Lane are lovely and lots of them.
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Post by interval99 on Feb 20, 2022 20:18:51 GMT
The loos at the refurbished Theatre Royal Drury Lane are lovely and lots of them. The Drury lane refit is lavish but certainly at the recent frozen matinee the queue for the ladies was long and seeming slow moving which is not good for all the children attending. The gents had a queue inside for the cubicles not helped by several dad's taking their daughters in to try and circumvent the ladies long wait. The playhouse Cabaret toilets are rightly getting a hammering as according to audience members ladies were invited to use the urinals which being previously the gents has cubicles as well. If they do they obviously go pass or even have to wait in the urinals area with the guys peeing. Theatres find space for bars and merchandise but not for customers convience.
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7,547 posts
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Post by alece10 on Feb 22, 2022 11:14:22 GMT
Watching This Morning right now (don't judge me... I am working from home today) and a woman is on complaining about the gender neutral toilets at Cabaret. She is saying she used one of the cubicles and didn't like the fact there were men outside the door and there was a gap above and below the door. Matthew Wright saw no issue with it but the other woman felt we were going backwards rather than forwards and they have just asked viewers for their opinion. Apparantly the woman was wearing a jump suit that she had to take off - how very 70s!
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Post by showoff on Feb 22, 2022 11:26:57 GMT
Watching This Morning right now (don't judge me... I am working from home today) and a woman is on complaining about the gender neutral toilets at Cabaret. She is saying she used one of the cubicles and didn't like the fact there were men outside the door and there was a gap above and below the door. Matthew Wright saw no issue with it but the other woman felt we were going backwards rather than forwards and they have just asked viewers for their opinion. Apparantly the woman was wearing a jump suit that she had to take off - how very 70s! I think the problem with them is that it technically reduces the amount of women's toilets, when there's already an issue there compared to the men (see the queues people have posted about awful queues for the ladies). There's still the same amount of toilets, but they're inviting men to also use what would be the ladies.
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Post by ladidah on Feb 22, 2022 11:34:47 GMT
Agreed, I already spend half my nights at the theatre queuing for the loo.
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Post by shadypines on Feb 22, 2022 11:49:34 GMT
Watching This Morning right now (don't judge me... I am working from home today) and a woman is on complaining about the gender neutral toilets at Cabaret. She is saying she used one of the cubicles and didn't like the fact there were men outside the door and there was a gap above and below the door. Matthew Wright saw no issue with it but the other woman felt we were going backwards rather than forwards and they have just asked viewers for their opinion. Apparantly the woman was wearing a jump suit that she had to take off - how very 70s! I think the problem with them is that it technically reduces the amount of women's toilets, when there's already an issue there compared to the men (see the queues people have posted about awful queues for the ladies). There's still the same amount of toilets, but they're inviting men to also use what would be the ladies. Surely, it's the other way around. They are inviting ladies into what would otherwise be the mens. Why would men join a queue for a "cubicle" when there isn't a queue for a urinal. The jumpsuit lady in question says she was "forced" to use the urinals, which blatantly isn't true. She had the option of joining the queue for the cubicles (formerly ladies) or using the cubicles in the urinals (formerly mens). there was 2 days of twitter commentary on the subject, and it all seemed very biased and "oh poor me and my bad decisions"
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Post by shadypines on Feb 22, 2022 11:52:42 GMT
It's true that very few venues have enough cubicles for people to use, irrespective of gender. That's largely a problem from being listed venues though.
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310 posts
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Post by showoff on Feb 22, 2022 11:57:15 GMT
I think the problem with them is that it technically reduces the amount of women's toilets, when there's already an issue there compared to the men (see the queues people have posted about awful queues for the ladies). There's still the same amount of toilets, but they're inviting men to also use what would be the ladies. Surely, it's the other way around. They are inviting ladies into what would otherwise be the mens. Why would men join a queue for a "cubicle" when there isn't a queue for a urinal. The jumpsuit lady in question says she was "forced" to use the urinals, which blatantly isn't true. She had the option of joining the queue for the cubicles (formerly ladies) or using the cubicles in the urinals (formerly mens). there was 2 days of twitter commentary on the subject, and it all seemed very biased and "oh poor me and my bad decisions" No, statistically it's been shown that it reduces the amount of toilets available to women. Women on the whole will not want to use cubicles next to urinals. Caroline Criado-Perez has done a whole thing on why making toilets gender neutral actually reduces women's access to toilets and decreases the amount open to them because men's toilets remain men's and women's become neutral.
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Post by ladidah on Feb 22, 2022 12:07:12 GMT
No, I wouldn't want to.
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Post by crowblack on Feb 22, 2022 12:44:25 GMT
It's true that very few venues have enough cubicles for people to use, irrespective of gender. That's largely a problem from being listed venues though. There's at least one listed venue that has resolved this issue by keeping the women's toilet single sex for women's safety and privacy, and making the men's toilet 'gender neutral'. Given that the toilet queue for the men's is always short to non existent, this seems like a far more logical solution that will allow 'overspill' from the women's into the former-men's at busy times, for those women who don't mind sharing a toilet space with men (and I am not one of them - a close relative was spied on by a man through the gap under a toilet door, something even easier now they have mobile phone cameras!)
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Post by inthenose on Feb 22, 2022 13:14:32 GMT
It's true that very few venues have enough cubicles for people to use, irrespective of gender. That's largely a problem from being listed venues though. There's at least one listed venue that has resolved this issue by keeping the women's toilet single sex for women's safety and privacy, and making the men's toilet 'gender neutral'. Given that the toilet queue for the men's is always short to non existent, this seems like a far more logical solution that will allow 'overspill' from the women's into the former-men's at busy times, for those women who don't mind sharing a toilet space with men (and I am not one of them - a close relative was spied on by a man through the gap under a toilet door, something even easier now they have mobile phone cameras!) Without being too rude or graphic about this, some theatres (eg Theatre Royal, Haymarket) literally have one men's cubicle serving the entire Royal Circle (first tier), which seats 215 people. There was already a backlog (for want of a better word) of queuing gentlemen both before the show and during the interval. If you were caught in that position it is already embarrassing and uncomfortable enough, I would imagine. For what it's worth, I'm not mad keen on sharing a public bathroom with the opposite sex either. In an ideal world there would be ample facilities for everyone, but we all know that will never be the case in such old buildings. Sadly it is a problem which is never going away except in new builds/larger unlisted buildings.
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Post by fiyero on Feb 22, 2022 13:48:37 GMT
I think the problem with them is that it technically reduces the amount of women's toilets, when there's already an issue there compared to the men (see the queues people have posted about awful queues for the ladies). There's still the same amount of toilets, but they're inviting men to also use what would be the ladies. Surely, it's the other way around. They are inviting ladies into what would otherwise be the mens. Why would men join a queue for a "cubicle" when there isn't a queue for a urinal. The jumpsuit lady in question says she was "forced" to use the urinals, which blatantly isn't true. She had the option of joining the queue for the cubicles (formerly ladies) or using the cubicles in the urinals (formerly mens). there was 2 days of twitter commentary on the subject, and it all seemed very biased and "oh poor me and my bad decisions" When I went and was in the grand circle the only toilets I found where what I assume were ladies. There wasn't a queue by the time I got there on the way out (I always let the crowds clear) but it still felt awkward! I genuinely didn't know there were other toilets!
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7,547 posts
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Post by alece10 on Feb 22, 2022 15:23:06 GMT
Glad the Cabaret toilet posts have been moved here as I wanted to comment but didn't think it was right within that thread. Personally I have no issue with gender neutral toilets and, to be honest, I would prefer all men's toilets to be cubicle only like for the ladies. Without getting too graphic I have an issue having a wee at an urinal as I tend to "dry up" when people are standing too close to me. Many a time I've ended up not being able to go and had to return to my seat still needing to go. So I always try to use a cubicle which are few and far between in theatres and I know a lot of other men feel the same. There is usually a queue for the cubicles inside men's loos as well. But generally I tend not to drink for about 2 days before I go to the theatre so I don't need to go 😀 Anyway sorry to share my ablution habits with you.
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Post by sph on Feb 22, 2022 15:33:51 GMT
People get an absurd amount of pleasure out of finding something to complain about.
I have been to venues in the West End with gender-neutral toilets and never seen any men queue for the ladies because... why would they? Why join a longer queue to access these toilets when their own usually has virtually no queue?
And if you're a woman in a theatre who doesn't want to go into a mens' with urinals, then why are you going in there? Why are you intentionally going into the one with urinals and complaining about the urinals? Even in the gender-neutral-toilet venues, there are toilets clearly marked as being mens or ladies to begin with.
And given that many of those on twitter threatening to boycott are clearly identifying themselves in their bios as "TERFs" or "gender-critical", I don't see why they'd be attending a performance of something like & Juliet or Cabaret anyway, given each show's content. It's like a vegan boycotting a steakhouse.
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Post by greeny11 on Feb 22, 2022 15:43:23 GMT
My understanding is that the gender neutral toilets are usually converted from ladies toilets - hence removing a safe space of female audience members who, understandably, do not want to be sharing facilities with men.
Personally, I think there needs to be gender neutral toilets, but not at the expense of ladies or gents. However, there is an obvious lack of space in most theatres for extra facilities - there's barely enough space in the facilities already there in some theatres. The gents toilets at certain theatres - the Phoenix and Vaudeville come to mind, are tiny. Some (like the Vaudeville one nearest the entrance), doesn't even have cubicles! Bit unfortunate if you need a cubicle for whatever reason.
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Post by crowblack on Feb 22, 2022 16:06:04 GMT
People get an absurd amount of pleasure out of finding something to complain about. Believe me, it's not a 'pleasure'. If you have experienced sexual assault, you'll understand why women are wary of public spaces that aren't covered by CCTV, often down secluded corridors, in which women get partially undressed, if we are now expected to have to share these spaces with male strangers, also in a state of partial undress. In the case of many of the venues that have introduced mixed sex toilets, there is no requirement for someone to have a theatre ticket to enter the building, nor has there been any attempt to close the gaps under and over doors or between cubicles. A close relative was followed into a museum toilet by a man and watched as she used the toilet from under the door gap. I've been in a toilet in Manchester arts venue where a male was filming on his phone in the mirror. I've been in a venue where a woman was violently assaulted by a man in the toilets. The Royal Court has (or had) a note inside the toilets warning of thieves in the building, so it acknowledges people go in there with criminal intent. And while you might have expected men thinking, 'well, these arrangements are for trans women really, and I'm not, so I'll use the men's', men (dressed like men) do use the former-women's toilets, even at quiet times, even when, in the case of the Young Vic, the male toilet is right next door.
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Post by sph on Feb 22, 2022 16:08:32 GMT
I can see the logic in converting a ladies' into a gender-neutral toilet as there would only be cubicles, which works better than a toilet with urinals, but at both venues mentioned in this recent argument (see Daily Mail article), the Shaftesbury and the Playhouse, it would seem that both a set of men's AND ladies' have been allocated as neutral.
Above the Stag in Vauxhall has an excellent system. The toilets are gender-neutral. When you walk in there is a large room with cubicles all the way round. Then there is a small, separate side-room with just urinals should you prefer to use those.
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Post by sph on Feb 22, 2022 16:13:18 GMT
People get an absurd amount of pleasure out of finding something to complain about. Believe me, it's not a 'pleasure'. If you have experienced sexual assault, you'll understand why women are wary of public spaces that aren't covered by CCTV, often down secluded corridors, in which women get partially undressed, if we are now expected to have to share these spaces with male strangers, also in a state of partial undress. In the case of many of the venues that have introduced mixed sex toilets, there is no requirement for someone to have a theatre ticket to enter the building, nor has there been any attempt to close the gaps under and over doors or between cubicles. A close relative was followed into a museum toilet by a man and watched as she used the toilet from under the door gap. I've been in a toilet in Manchester arts venue where a male was filming on his phone in the mirror. I've been in a venue where a woman was violently assaulted by a man in the toilets. The Royal Court has (or had) a note inside the toilets warning of thieves in the building, so it acknowledges people go in there with criminal intent. And while you might have expected men thinking, 'well, these arrangements are for trans women really, and I'm not, so I'll use the men's', men (dressed like men) do use the former-women's toilets, even at quiet times, even when, in the case of the Young Vic, the male toilet is right next door. On the contrary it is a great pleasure, and one at which the British excel at. Have there been reports of gender-neutral toilets making sexual assault more common? Are men booking tickets to the theatre on the off chance that there will be a gender-neutral toilet, which they can queue up for during a busy interval, enter a busy toilet with many witnesses and assault someone? If you were going to assault someone, it seems to be an awfully roundabout way of doing it.
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Post by crowblack on Feb 22, 2022 16:23:51 GMT
Have their been reports of gender-neutral toilets making sexual assault more common? Are men booking tickets to the theatre on the off chance that there will be a gender-neutral toilet, which they can queue up for during a busy interval, enter a busy toilet with many witnesses and assault someone? If you were going to assault someone, it seems to be an awfully roundabout way of doing it. Yes, in mixed sex toilets and changing rooms, including the fitting of hidden cameras. You do not need a theatre ticket to enter the Royal Court, the Young Vic, or the South Bank venues that have brought in mixed sex toilets. They are open to the public to use the bar, restaurant and just wander around. Similarly, at one of my local theatres, the mixed sex toilets are the ones accessed through the bar which opens onto a public square. At another local arts venue, again open to the general public, no tickets needed - not even a door, just a gap open to the street - there is only one toilet room, with two cubicles on the right of the sinks and urinals on the left of the sinks. And for added joy it's down a secluded corridor.
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Post by sph on Feb 22, 2022 16:32:28 GMT
And what was there to prevent a man with bad intentions from entering a ladies' toilet before the introduction of gender-neutral toilets?
Many places, such as small coffee shops, have just one unisex toilet available to customers and they've been around for many years. There are still cubicles in the gender-neutral ones in theatres. You aren't sharing a toilet with a man, quite frankly, you're sharing a sink.
Certainly adjustments could be made, such as completely enclosed cubicles with no gaps in doors etc. I think that would work.
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Post by crowblack on Feb 22, 2022 16:33:25 GMT
Seriously, has something miraculous happened to men and their sex drives in the last 4 years that has suddenly rendered the toilet arrangements we have had for our safety and privacy for decades, now unnecessary?
And of course it's 'not all men'. It's a tiny minority. And it's very unlikely you're going to have a car crash every time you get in a car, but we have to wear a seat belt just in case today's the day it happens.
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Post by Jon on Feb 22, 2022 16:34:45 GMT
I don't really get the complaints about how theatre owners can find space for a bar or a merchandise stall but not for a toilet, the logistics to build a bar or a merchandise stall is very different to a toilet, plumbing is one factor as a bar need very little plumbing and a merch stand doesn't need any at all.
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Post by crowblack on Feb 22, 2022 16:38:39 GMT
And what was there to prevent a man with bad intentions from entering a ladies' toilet before the introduction of gender-neutral toilets? People would challenge him. At some venues, there is the cloakroom with its attendant strategically positioned near the toilet doors. Some venues used to have attendants inside them (maybe some still do). It's a different situation where the toilet is a self-contained room that opens directly onto the busy main part of the venue. That's what they have in some cafes and in places like The Photographers Gallery, where they also luckily have a meticulous clientele who don't tend to leave wee drops scattered around either. But that's not the situation we're talking about with most of these venues.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Feb 22, 2022 16:43:45 GMT
I don't really get the complaints about how theatre owners can find space for a bar or a merchandise stall but not for a toilet, the logistics to build a bar or a merchandise stall is very different to a toilet, plumbing is one factor as a bar need very little plumbing and a merch stand doesn't need any at all. A bar needs a good amount of plumbing just from a food hygiene perspective to be more than just a kiosk. Different sort of building process, I grant you, but you still need running water and drainage to run a bar.
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Post by Phantom of London on Feb 22, 2022 20:00:02 GMT
And gender neutral toilets are on obstacle for me, as when I need the toilet I need it very quickly and queuing for a cubicle (polite way of saying what kind of toilet I need) is not a real option for me.
I suffer from Crohns. For 25 years I managed my condition very well and a toilet wouldn’t be an issue, but 3 years ago I had to have emergency life saving surgery, where more of my bowel was removed and that being a critical part, now my bowel management is poor, despite taking 40 tablets a day to have some sort of control, which basically does little for me.
I am a radar key holder as my condition is recognised where I need an (additional needs) toilet, however in many theatre venues these toilets are not fitted with a radar lock, so basically these toilets are used as an overspill toilet (which ordinarily is understandable, as people just see an empty toilet) and assume they just make way if someone comes along with a wheelchair, not taking on board there are none obvious conditions that need these toilets.
The Playhouse is one such venue that doesn’t have a radar lock on their toilet.
Gender neutral toilets do nothing to help me.
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Post by interval99 on Feb 22, 2022 20:35:05 GMT
I don't really get the complaints about how theatre owners can find space for a bar or a merchandise stall but not for a toilet, the logistics to build a bar or a merchandise stall is very different to a toilet, plumbing is one factor as a bar need very little plumbing and a merch stand doesn't need any at all. If they have space how about the theatre actually thinking how it can serve the Patron's need. There are many examples especially in the west end where toilets could have been made bigger but are squashed to make more bar space. The Gillian Lynne theatre is a prime example where the toilets are behind the bar which could easily have been moved forward. Especially given that they had two other bars plus drink sellers around the floor. If people have been to cabaret then they will have seen that merged toilets have done nothing to reduce queues.
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Post by crowblack on Feb 22, 2022 20:53:15 GMT
not taking on board there are none obvious conditions that need these toilets. I'm sorry to hear that, Phantom, and I hope more venues start to recognise all the needs people have, especially hidden disabilities and the way bodies change and the things we may have to deal with (and that includes the spacing of intervals!)
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Post by kathryn on Feb 22, 2022 20:59:25 GMT
I don't see why they'd be attending a performance of something like & Juliet or Cabaret anyway, given each show's content. It's like a vegan boycotting a steakhouse. Ahem. I’m a gender critical feminist and I’ve seen multiple productions of Cabaret and & Juliet. Being gender critical mean being critical of gender ideology. That includes ideology that restricts people’s choices based on stereotypical gender roles as well as ideology that attempts to demote the recognition of biological sex differences in favour of recognition of ‘gender identity’ (which is frequently based on rigid interpretation of aforementioned stereotypical gender roles). Many gender critical feminists are gay and lesbian, many are ‘gender non-conforming’. Concerns about mixed-sex bathrooms are due to recognition of the importance of single-sex spaces in providing females with safety, privacy and dignity.
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