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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 14:01:22 GMT
Arguing that a building full of people should lose their jobs because of something so trivial just doesn't seem worth the paper it's printed on. There isn't the spare cash, or the time to waste going dark, to facilitate any kind of refurbishment over something like that. Again, people would be out of work and not being paid. Still a nonsense suggestion. But it’s likely the last theatre to do so as future ones are banned by the change in the planning rules which the Times specifically say cover new theatres and theatres getting refurbished. Oh I wouldn't worry. I have faith that legislation can and probably will change. In the meantime we can all rejoice over the shorter queues at the Playhouse.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 14:01:50 GMT
Arguing that a building full of people should lose their jobs because of something so trivial just doesn't seem worth the paper it's printed on. There isn't the spare cash, or the time to waste going dark, to facilitate any kind of refurbishment over something like that. Again, people would be out of work and not being paid. Still a nonsense suggestion. At least the article in the newspaper in question would have some use if you ran out of toilet paper.... But seriously, we need to nip in the bud the suggestion that the press, Government, Mumsnet etc will call for a theatre to be closed down over their toilets, it's not going to happen. There is a big difference between calling for closing down and people complaining about it and the complaints getting press coverage.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 14:03:16 GMT
But it’s likely the last theatre to do so as future ones are banned by the change in the planning rules which the Times specifically say cover new theatres and theatres getting refurbished. Oh I wouldn't worry. I have faith that legislation can and probably will change. In the meantime we can all rejoice over the shorter queues at the Playhouse. Shorter but many of the audience might find them uncomfortable and unpleasant. I know people going to the show who are unhappy they have to use them as they do not agree with the use of non single sex toilets.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 14:10:01 GMT
Oh I wouldn't worry. I have faith that legislation can and probably will change. In the meantime we can all rejoice over the shorter queues at the Playhouse. Shorter but many of the audience might find them uncomfortable and unpleasant. I know people going to the show who are unhappy they have to use them as they do not agree with the use of non single sex toilets. Then they are, of course, free not to use them. There's probably a Starbucks near by they can pop to before the show - where they will likely find a gender neutral toilet, that no one has ever taken issue with.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 14:26:36 GMT
Most cafes have two cubicles - one men one women.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 14:28:39 GMT
Maybe they should be type of toilets. Male, Female and Mixed. Everyone happen.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 14:33:27 GMT
Most cafes have two cubicles - one men one women. This is demonstrably not true of the majority of coffee shops I have ever visited in central London, but okay. There is simply not the space. Which is also why suggesting places simply add a third 'mixed' option when it comes to facilities is not viable.
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Post by Jon on Nov 18, 2021 14:40:46 GMT
This is demonstrably not true of the majority of coffee shops I have ever visited in central London, but okay. There is simply not the space. Which is also why suggesting places simply add a third 'mixed' option when it comes to facilities is not viable. It's not just space, it's the cost as well to install the facilities and toilets aren't revenue generating spaces to justify that extra cost. There is disabled loos in many places but those should only be for disabled patrons only who simply cannot use either male or female toilets.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 15:22:10 GMT
Most cafes have two cubicles - one men one women. This is demonstrably not true of the majority of coffee shops I have ever visited in central London, but okay. There is simply not the space. Which is also why suggesting places simply add a third 'mixed' option when it comes to facilities is not viable. Most chain cafes have two toilets. Or if it’s a single toilet it’s more like a disabled toilet in terms of size and often with the hand washing facilities behind the locked door and people find them less threatening.
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Post by lynette on Nov 18, 2021 15:57:00 GMT
I read somewhere that they are going to introduce a scheme whereby older people would be allowed to access the toilets in office buildings. Apparently older people are put off going out to the shops and so on because there are no public loos anymore. Why only older people I do not know. Parents with little kids know well enough of the ‘emergencies ‘ that may ensue, not to mention any age person with a disability, not always obvious. They would put a sign on the building so you would know….I look forward to going into the Foreign Office cooing “loo, need the loo”.
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Post by cavocado on Nov 18, 2021 16:16:37 GMT
Ahhh, the effects of the echo chamber. If you read only papers written by people who have an issue with these things, it is easy to believe everyone has the same issue. I can assure you that is not the case. There's a YouGov tracker on this. Over the last 2 years it's consistently shown that only 7 to 9% support gender neutral only toilets yougov.co.uk/topics/philosophy/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces. You can see the breakdown for factors like social class, sex, region, political views and age, but support is low in all categories. Even allowing a big margin for error, it looks like most of the country, regardless of demographics, is living in that 'echo chamber'. Of course shows aren't going to close, nor would people want them to. But asking theatres to listen to their customers, or to public opinion and legislation on single sex spaces, isn't too much to expect.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 16:19:42 GMT
Ahhh, the effects of the echo chamber. If you read only papers written by people who have an issue with these things, it is easy to believe everyone has the same issue. I can assure you that is not the case. There's a YouGov tracker on this. Over the last 2 years it's consistently shown that only 7 to 9% support gender neutral only toilets yougov.co.uk/topics/philosophy/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces. You can see the breakdown for factors like social class, sex, region, political views and age, but support is low in all categories. Even allowing a big margin for error, it looks like most of the country, regardless of demographics, is living in that 'echo chamber'. Of course shows aren't going to close, nor would people want them to. But asking theatres to listen to their customers, or to public opinion and legislation on single sex spaces, isn't too much to expect. I think the echo chamber is the opposite to what the poster above thinks it is.
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Post by Jon on Nov 18, 2021 16:23:12 GMT
I read somewhere that they are going to introduce a scheme whereby older people would be allowed to access the toilets in office buildings. Apparently older people are put off going out to the shops and so on because there are no public loos anymore. Why only older people I do not know. Parents with little kids know well enough of the ‘emergencies ‘ that may ensue, not to mention any age person with a disability, not always obvious. They would put a sign on the building so you would know….I look forward to going into the Foreign Office cooing “loo, need the loo”. I doubt Government buildings would be part of that scheme as they're a terrorist risk.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 16:23:53 GMT
Ahhh, the effects of the echo chamber. If you read only papers written by people who have an issue with these things, it is easy to believe everyone has the same issue. I can assure you that is not the case. There's a YouGov tracker on this. Over the last 2 years it's consistently shown that only 7 to 9% support gender neutral only toilets yougov.co.uk/topics/philosophy/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces. You can see the breakdown for factors like social class, sex, region, political views and age, but support is low in all categories. Even allowing a big margin for error, it looks like most of the country, regardless of demographics, is living in that 'echo chamber'. Of course shows aren't going to close, nor would people want them to. But asking theatres to listen to their customers, or to public opinion and legislation on single sex spaces, isn't too much to expect. I think the majority of people just don't care. Really how much time do you spend thinking about public toilets? Personally it doesn't really plague my life that much. Certainly not to the extent I'd answer a survey about it :') I'd imagine there's a lot of bias in anything like that because the outspoken people are often very extreme in either view. But I'd wager that the majority of people in favour of what Cabaret have done don't need to have a song and dance about it (we'll leave that to the actors on the stage), because it really is not the forefront of our lives.
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Post by interval99 on Nov 18, 2021 16:33:18 GMT
Well pretty sure you would lose that wager, the fact the practice has been halted in public places should show that.
People do very well with financial rewards answering surveys on a whole range of questions on subjects far more out there than toilets, if you do get on the list it's can be good money for a few minutes form filling.
Perhaps someone who has been to the playhouse can advise if it is the queue busting ploy we are been told it is.
In general theatre toilets are substandard and while the listed building no space feedback comes up they seem to find enough spaces for the extra bars and merchandising stores.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 16:38:32 GMT
Well pretty sure you would lose that wager, the fact the practice has been halted in public places should show that. People do very well with financial rewards answering surveys on a whole range of questions on subjects far more out there than toilets, if you do get on the list it's can be good money for a few minutes form filling. Perhaps someone who has been to the playhouse can advise if it is the queue busting ploy we are been told it is. In general theatre toilets are substandard and while the listed building no space feedback comes up they seem to find enough spaces for the extra bars and merchandising stores. I don't think you actually read what I wrote. 'I'd wager that the majority of people in favour of what Cabaret have done don't need to have a song and dance about it'. I fully standby that comment. Quiet support is obviously going to outweigh the number of people setting off confetti cannons over the matter. Really not sure how you're disagreeing with that :')
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 17:08:49 GMT
Well pretty sure you would lose that wager, the fact the practice has been halted in public places should show that. People do very well with financial rewards answering surveys on a whole range of questions on subjects far more out there than toilets, if you do get on the list it's can be good money for a few minutes form filling. Perhaps someone who has been to the playhouse can advise if it is the queue busting ploy we are been told it is. In general theatre toilets are substandard and while the listed building no space feedback comes up they seem to find enough spaces for the extra bars and merchandising stores. I don't think you actually read what I wrote. 'I'd wager that the majority of people in favour of what Cabaret have done don't need to have a song and dance about it'. I fully standby that comment. Quiet support is obviously going to outweigh the number of people setting off confetti cannons over the matter. Really not sure how you're disagreeing with that :') Doesn’t mean they agree with it. They might just not want to make a fuss. Or be fearful of being cancelled if they do.
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Post by cavocado on Nov 18, 2021 17:23:33 GMT
There's a YouGov tracker on this. Over the last 2 years it's consistently shown that only 7 to 9% support gender neutral only toilets yougov.co.uk/topics/philosophy/trackers/support-for-separate-toilets-for-men-and-women-and-gender-neutral-toilets-in-public-spaces. You can see the breakdown for factors like social class, sex, region, political views and age, but support is low in all categories. Even allowing a big margin for error, it looks like most of the country, regardless of demographics, is living in that 'echo chamber'. Of course shows aren't going to close, nor would people want them to. But asking theatres to listen to their customers, or to public opinion and legislation on single sex spaces, isn't too much to expect. I think the majority of people just don't care. Really how much time do you spend thinking about public toilets? Personally it doesn't really plague my life that much. Certainly not to the extent I'd answer a survey about it :') I'd imagine there's a lot of bias in anything like that because the outspoken people are often very extreme in either view. But I'd wager that the majority of people in favour of what Cabaret have done don't need to have a song and dance about it (we'll leave that to the actors on the stage), because it really is not the forefront of our lives. It doesn't affect you, you're not bothered about the many examples of other people's discomfort, you discount polling evidence*, so I'm going to give up now, and wish you well. I certainly hope that neither you or your friends/family ever have experiences that cause you to feel the kind of discomfort and distress many of us have told you about. It's really not at the forefront of most of our lives. Like most people I care about a variety of different issue - inflation, education, HS2, refugees, climate change, the NHS, who's going to win Bake Off, what type of loos are in public buildings. I think it's fine to have an opinion on all of these. It doesn't mean I think about nothing else. *By the way, polling organisations tend to be quite careful about choosing a representative cross section, and the YouGov trackers are questioning about 2000 people each month on all sorts of things at the same time, not people self-selected based on their great love of public toilets.
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Post by alece10 on Nov 18, 2021 17:56:19 GMT
I read somewhere that they are going to introduce a scheme whereby older people would be allowed to access the toilets in office buildings. Apparently older people are put off going out to the shops and so on because there are no public loos anymore. Why only older people I do not know. Parents with little kids know well enough of the ‘emergencies ‘ that may ensue, not to mention any age person with a disability, not always obvious. They would put a sign on the building so you would know….I look forward to going into the Foreign Office cooing “loo, need the loo”. There is a kind of similar scheme running where I live in East London where various establishments allow you to use the facilities even if not a customer. They have notices outside and a list of places online. I think it came about after so many public toilets were closed due to local government cuts.
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Post by mkb on Nov 19, 2021 7:22:45 GMT
The Old Vic's toilets have been gender-neutral for a couple of years and the world has not ended. Why should there be a media frenzy over something that has become increasingly common in the past few years? Besides, Cabaret's toilets are gender-neutral only before the show starts, at the interval all the men go to the urinals to skip the super long queue of women. Worth noting is that it is not "all the men". Estimates range from 3% to 16% for the proportion of males who suffer from paruresis (pee shyness) which disproportionately affects men. That's why, at any large-scale public event, there is always a queue for the cubicles in the gents, which hardly anyone then occupies for as long as would be needed for a number two. [Drug-taking and dealing with private medical conditions are other reasons why men may choose a cubicle, but I would hazard that paruresis is the predominant cause.] The problem is solved for all but the worst sufferers by the simple expedient of putting floor-to-ceiling dividers between urinals. Of course, that's not possible, where the abomination that is the shared trough is in use. As a (male) sufferer, I have used the gender-neutral toilets at both The Old Vic and the Hampstead Downstairs; it was pretty clear to me that several women were uncomfortable or unhappy about my presence. I think it's irrational and strange for some people to feel that way, but it's a fact that they do, and many make no attempt to hide it. That, in turn, makes me feel awkward and out of place. It could take generations, if ever, to change ingrained social attitudes.
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Post by cavocado on Nov 19, 2021 9:32:37 GMT
"I think it's irrational and strange for some people to feel that way"I'm sorry you experience this mkb but it's not irrational or strange for many women to want to protect our right to single sex spaces. I think it's sometimes hard for reasonable, respectful men to understand that women can be fearful of them, but many of us have seen and/or experienced harrassment, abuse or assault by men (I've experienced all of those), so don't wish to share private spaces with men we don't know. It might seem a good solution to make women's toilets mixed, but your comfort is achieved at the expense of some women's comfort. Maybe men could campaign for better facilities for themselves?
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Post by mkb on Nov 19, 2021 9:57:24 GMT
"I think it's irrational and strange for some people to feel that way"I'm sorry you experience this mkb but it's not irrational or strange for many women to want to protect our right to single sex spaces. I think it's sometimes hard for reasonable, respectful men to understand that women can be fearful of them, but many of us have seen and/or experienced harrassment, abuse or assault by men (I've experienced all of those), so don't wish to share private spaces with men we don't know. It might seem a good solution to make women's toilets mixed, but your comfort is achieved at the expense of some women's comfort. Maybe men could campaign for better facilities for themselves? Imagine how this argument would play if you substitute "black people" for "men": it is never right to judge any person based on experiences of another person (and I take "being fearful of" as one mighty big judgement here). It *is* irrational. That said, I do sympathise with the argument (and, on balance, I think single-sex toilets are the most practical). The pattern-matching skills of the human brain are their to protect us from threats. That is why we naturally stereotype. It can take a lot of mental willpower to override our prejudices, whether learned or instinctive.
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Post by crowblack on Nov 19, 2021 11:08:00 GMT
It's not 'irrational' or 'prejudiced'. It's based on our lived experience as women.
The Playhouse toilets labelled 'urinals' do apparently contain cubicles too, but isn't labelled as such.
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Post by mkb on Nov 19, 2021 12:02:11 GMT
We all have lived experiences.
The majority of people who have threatened or physically attacked me during my life (and I guess I could count a couple of dozen) have been black youths, despite the fact that I have lived in predominantly white areas.
The majority of fights I have witnessed in gay clubs -- and I've seen a few.-- have been between lesbians, despite the overwhelming majority of the clientele being male.
The worst people for chatting out loud during plays seem to be people with plummy accents.
I don't extrapolate or judge any groups based on these experiences. To do so would be irrational. Judge each person on their behaviour alone.
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Post by cavocado on Nov 19, 2021 12:39:23 GMT
I've got no reason to fear black people, so to me that's quite a bizarre and offensive comparison. I imagine male reactions to male violence are different, given that men tend to be much stronger than women and that women are far more likely to be victims of sexual violence. It's telling that you say 'black youths' have attacked you - sounds like you'd be able to pick out who might be a danger to you, and it might be rational for you to feel uneasy if you're followed by a young black man. Is that racist? I guess you'd feel fine if it was a 60 year old black man, or a black woman? What about a young white man? I assume you assess the risk and try to be as specific as possible.
For me, I've been followed, harrassed and assaulted by men many times since I was in my teens. Most women I know (of various races) have had similar experiences. It's not a certain type of man. I couldn't pick them out by age, race, clothing, appearance, social class, accent, job. If you think that's prejudice then maybe it is, but it feels rational to me to be cautious, and I don't know how to do that without generalising. I don't want to use 'mental willpower' to overcome something that has kept me safe and got me out of some difficult situations, and I certainly wouldn't advise my daughter to do this, or my son to feel it's okay to walk behind a woman down a quiet road because she's just being irrational if she feels scared of him.
Single sex spaces are a small concession to help women navigate this culture, to give us privacy when we are vulnerable. The solution to you feeling uncomfortable (or other men, or trans people or anyone else who feels that existing arrangements don't cater for them) is to campaign for your own spaces to be better designed, or for additional mixed spaces. NOT to expect women to give up our spaces, which we have for good reasons. In this case, adapting male facilities with urinal screens (as you suggested) and cubicles (which must already exist?) is an easy answer.
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 19, 2021 12:56:36 GMT
The Old Vic's toilets have been gender-neutral for a couple of years and the world has not ended. Why should there be a media frenzy over something that has become increasingly common in the past few years? Besides, Cabaret's toilets are gender-neutral only before the show starts, at the interval all the men go to the urinals to skip the super long queue of women. Worth noting is that it is not "all the men". Estimates range from 3% to 16% for the proportion of males who suffer from paruresis (pee shyness) which disproportionately affects men. Sorry, I didn't mean actual urinals. The toilets at the Playhouse are divided into "toilets" and "urinals", but in the "urinals" toilets there are both actual urinals and cubicles (just not as many as in the "toilets" toilet, like 2 as opposed to 4 or five). I myself always avoid urinals when I can, but I went to the "urinals" to avoid the long queue outside the "toilets" and treated myself to a nice cubicle all the same
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Post by Jon on Nov 19, 2021 13:12:14 GMT
In general theatre toilets are substandard and while the listed building no space feedback comes up they seem to find enough spaces for the extra bars and merchandising stores. I would point out that bar spaces and merchandise stands do not take up nearly as much space or investment compared to toilets which need a lot more done to add them in and unlike toilets, they make back their investment and even some profit from their build.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 19, 2021 13:15:54 GMT
Already seeing tweets complaining about the toilets at the playhouse.
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Post by mkb on Nov 19, 2021 13:20:03 GMT
I've got no reason to fear black people, so to me that's quite a bizarre and offensive comparison. I imagine male reactions to male violence are different, given that men tend to be much stronger than women and that women are far more likely to be victims of sexual violence. It's telling that you say 'black youths' have attacked you - sounds like you'd be able to pick out who might be a danger to you, and it might be rational for you to feel uneasy if you're followed by a young black man. Is that racist? I guess you'd feel fine if it was a 60 year old black man, or a black woman? What about a young white man? I assume you assess the risk and try to be as specific as possible. For me, I've been followed, harrassed and assaulted by men many times since I was in my teens. Most women I know (of various races) have had similar experiences. It's not a certain type of man. I couldn't pick them out by age, race, clothing, appearance, social class, accent, job. If you think that's prejudice then maybe it is, but it feels rational to me to be cautious, and I don't know how to do that without generalising. I don't want to use 'mental willpower' to overcome something that has kept me safe and got me out of some difficult situations, and I certainly wouldn't advise my daughter to do this, or my son to feel it's okay to walk behind a woman down a quiet road because she's just being irrational if she feels scared of him. Single sex spaces are a small concession to help women navigate this culture, to give us privacy when we are vulnerable. The solution to you feeling uncomfortable (or other men, or trans people or anyone else who feels that existing arrangements don't cater for them) is to campaign for your own spaces to be better designed, or for additional mixed spaces. NOT to expect women to give up our spaces, which we have for good reasons. In this case, adapting male facilities with urinal screens (as you suggested) and cubicles (which must already exist?) is an easy answer. That's a cogent and well-reasoned response. It helps me understand why you feel as you do. I am completely with you on looking for behavioural clues as to whether someone is a threat. Male-on-male violence is by far the most common, and considered to be under-represented in statistics, especially sexual violence. This article has interesting things to say: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_men Of course, non-violent men have no way of creating a safe space free of violent men. In any case, with rare exceptions, I am not sure there is such a thing as "a violent person"; it's a group we all have capacity to be a member of.
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Post by cavocado on Nov 19, 2021 13:41:01 GMT
That's an interesting point about our capacity for violence. I'll read that article later - thanks. I do worry about violence against men too, especially having a teenage son.
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