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Post by Steve on May 23, 2017 16:30:18 GMT
It's wrong to confuse ISIS with Islam. The other day, someone told me they were scared living close to the Morden Mosque, and I had to laugh, because the Muslims who worship there, are of the Ahmadi sect, that disavow ALL violence for ANY reason.
If you are looking for horrific justifications for political violence in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, they are easy to find. The Passover itself is a story of God deliberately killing children to extract political concessions from the Egyptians, a story that all believers of the Abrahamic religions must explain to themselves.
Thankfully, most rabbis, priests and imams have found ways to disavow this sort of violence, in their religious teachings, as practiced today.
From ISIS' perspective, we are at war with them. Our own government confirms this:
"The UK has committed over 1,250 military personnel to the region to provide essential support to local forces. In the air, the Royal Air Force has conducted over 1,200 airstrikes in Iraq and Syria - more than any other Coalition country bar America – and provides highly advanced intelligence and surveillance to Iraqi Security Forces. On the ground, the UK has trained over 39,000 Iraqi soldiers in engineering, medical skills and basic infantry. In Syria, UK armed forces are training vetted members of Syrian opposition groups in infantry, medical and explosive hazard awareness skills as part of our counter-Daesh campaign. As a result, Daesh has lost 62% of the territory it once occupied in Iraq and 30% in Syria." (https://www.gov.uk/government/topical-events/daesh/about)
However, even if we are at war, it's a war crime to target civilians. There is no justification for deliberately killing children attending a concert.
And we should encourage all believers in the Abrahamic religions to interpret their texts the way the Ahmadis do, which is that all violence against civilians is wrong, war or no war.
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Post by infofreako on May 23, 2017 16:44:51 GMT
Steve. I think that first line is very much nail on the head. Many I speak to are sadly very quick to refer to ISIS and Islam as one and the same. Having studied the Islamic faith though that's as far from the truth as you could get
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Post by edmundokeano on May 23, 2017 16:50:25 GMT
Totally agree but thankfully I'm not one of them...
Whoever commits such acts are barbaric regardless of their faith. My problem is with people putting their heads in the sand and pretending they don't know the cause.
Agreed. Your tone of smug sarcastic self-righteousness was nothing if not respectful and calm. I'm not being smug. I said that they don't represent Islam or most Muslims but to deny that the atrocities were conducted by Muslim extremists or even pretend that we don't know who the perpetrators are is akin to hiding your head in the sand. Too many people only have WW2 as their sole reference point of history and it prevents them from being honest as they're convinced the next holocaust is around the corner at worse or mentioning race or religion - regardless of whenever there is a clear trend - is racist at best.
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Post by poster J on May 23, 2017 17:00:50 GMT
I said that they don't represent Islam or most Muslims but to deny that the atrocities were conducted by Muslim extremists or even pretend that we don't know who the perpetrators are is akin to hiding your head in the sand. The atrocities were caused by extremists who likely would profess to be Muslims. Whether they were actually true Muslims by the rules of that faith and their adherence or lack of to those rules is a different matter entirely, so to add the label "Muslim" to the word extremist really doesn't add anything at all. What religion they did or did not profess to follow is irrelevant, the only fact and the only thing that matters is that they were extremists. They shouldn't really be dignified by any sort of suggestion that they were connected to any religion in the true sense of any faith, as no religion (Islam included) would condone such barbaric and senseless murder.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on May 23, 2017 17:11:55 GMT
The fact that it was a young man, of a similar age to those who might have been at the concert, is unsurprising. Another potential example of a man unable to cope with confident, empowered young women. The target wasn't a mistake, attacking teenage and tweenage girls was exactly what he sought
Just as importantly -
US officials (the leaky as a sieve White House?) should be hauled over the coals. UK authorities apparently wanted more time to go about their business without alerting potential contacts, yet showing once again that secrets are not safe in their hands they blabbed the killer's identity to the media. Idiots....
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Post by theatremadness on May 23, 2017 17:15:05 GMT
Some good journalism from Newsround, advising children on how to cope with these kind of events.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 17:23:41 GMT
We do not see these Western attacks being carried out by fundamentalists from any other religion
It is always young males affiliated with Islam
Not Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Buddhist
There is a problem
That is a fact
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 23, 2017 17:33:30 GMT
Some good journalism from Newsround, advising children on how to cope with these kind of events. Bless them. Is it still John Craven?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 17:42:09 GMT
If you had a dog
Which ran off and mauled someone
You would be responsible
If you didn't service your car
And an accident occurred
You would be liable
If your children ran amok and caused problem
The parents would be looked at and questions asked
If one doctor committed serial crimes over a number of years
The whole way in which all medical practitioners are assessed and checked is overhauled
Despite the fact many of these fundamentalists are groomed and trained within the umbrella of the UK Muslim community- in mosques and community groups
And this takes support both financial and otherwise
With family members usually seeing a change in behaviour patterns
I have never seen anyone taking some sort of ownership and responsibility that there are major issues
We are beaten over the head daily as NHS staff and told how sh*t we are
And what my colleagues (in the widest sense) do has a massive impact on me Even though I have no direct control over their actions
I don't see why religion is any different
It is not a passive entity
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Post by Jan on May 23, 2017 17:43:44 GMT
Agreed. Your tone of smug sarcastic self-righteousness was nothing if not respectful and calm. I'm not being smug. I said that they don't represent Islam or most Muslims but to deny that the atrocities were conducted by Muslim extremists or even pretend that we don't know who the perpetrators are is akin to hiding your head in the sand. Too many people only have WW2 as their sole reference point of history and it prevents them from being honest as they're convinced the next holocaust is around the corner at worse or mentioning race or religion - regardless of whenever there is a clear trend - is racist at best. When the IRA were bombing Manchester we had no problem calling them Catholic terrorists, we didn't invent a new word to avoid that fact (and fact it was given several Catholic priests were involved with them). But of course we knew they didn't represent ALL Catholics and actually there was very little backlash against the Irish in U.K. in general. Likewise with the Protestant terrorists. Inventing new words to avoid the fact doesn't help.
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Post by hal9000 on May 23, 2017 17:46:06 GMT
Let's list all the similar atrocities carried out by non-Muslims and then those committed by Muslims in the last 20 years...
Actually, let's not.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 17:49:34 GMT
Let's list all the similar atrocities carried out by non-Muslims and then those committed by Muslims in the last 20 years...
Actually, let's not. If we need to get to the level Which is worse Dog sh*t or cow sh*t It's not that promising
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Post by edmundokeano on May 23, 2017 17:52:46 GMT
I'm not being smug. I said that they don't represent Islam or most Muslims but to deny that the atrocities were conducted by Muslim extremists or even pretend that we don't know who the perpetrators are is akin to hiding your head in the sand. Too many people only have WW2 as their sole reference point of history and it prevents them from being honest as they're convinced the next holocaust is around the corner at worse or mentioning race or religion - regardless of whenever there is a clear trend - is racist at best. When the IRA were bombing Manchester we had no problem calling them Catholic terrorists, we didn't invent a new word to avoid that fact (and fact it was given several Catholic priests were involved with them). But of course we knew they didn't represent ALL Catholics and actually there was very little backlash against the Irish in U.K. in general. Likewise with the Protestant terrorists. Inventing new words to avoid the fact doesn't help. Because they weren't Catholic terrorists but Irish terrorists and no news agency reference their faith. I'm from an Irish Catholic background and have met former IRA members and not one has ever said they were fighting for Catholicism and you will not find one IRA justification for their war based on religion. . That's why things are different now.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on May 23, 2017 17:59:03 GMT
Religion or nationalism, it doesn't change the nature of the act.
There isn't a 'better' form of terrorism.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 18:05:20 GMT
We do not see these Western attacks being carried out by fundamentalists from any other religion It is always young males affiliated with Islam Not Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Buddhist There is a problem That is a fact Anders Breivik. Dylann Roof. Adam Lanza. Different MOs but still terrorism and none of them Muslim. I could find other non-Muslim mass murderers but frankly my search history is sullied enough just double-checking these three.
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Post by ShoesForRent on May 23, 2017 18:14:29 GMT
We do not see these Western attacks being carried out by fundamentalists from any other religion It is always young males affiliated with Islam Not Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Buddhist There is a problem That is a fact You know, Ive written this whole thing, but I really feel like this isn't my place to comment in this thread, as I am not from the UK. My heart is breaking for all involved. I'll just say this- I'm a jewish (non religious, but carry the title with pride) woman from Israel, and Jewish extremists also carry out horrific terror attacks- and not just targeting those of other religions, and these are not just isolated cases either. Sometimes in the name of their religion, sometimes in the name of something else. All over the world. I'm sure Jewish and Muslim extremists aren't the only ones either, but I'm not educated enough to make any claims about it. So no it is not just one group of extremists... Take from this what you will.
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Post by edmundokeano on May 23, 2017 18:20:58 GMT
We do not see these Western attacks being carried out by fundamentalists from any other religion It is always young males affiliated with Islam Not Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Buddhist There is a problem That is a fact Anders Breivik. Dylann Roof. Adam Lanza. Different MOs but still terrorism and none of them Muslim. I could find other non-Muslim mass murderers but frankly my search history is sullied enough just double-checking these three. Meet my challenge and name as many non Muslim atrocities in the last 20 years and then name as many Muslim ones as you can. Stop hiding your head in the sand. We have a serious problem with extreme Islamists. When will you finally acknowledge it? When the inevitable attack on London's theatres happens or when they inevitably target the gay community? Stop trying to lessen the serious situation we are in.
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Post by poster J on May 23, 2017 18:32:49 GMT
Meet my challenge and name as many non Muslim atrocities in the last 20 years and then name as many Muslim ones as you can. Stop hiding your head in the sand. We have a serious problem with extreme Islamists. When will you finally acknowledge it? When the inevitable attack on London's theatres happens or when they inevitably target the gay community? Stop trying to lessen the serious situation we are in. If you really believe that the only extremists that exist are Muslim then you need to open your eyes and join the real world. Extremists come in all forms of religion and none, and blaming one religious group as you seem intent on doing is not going to help anyone. The only one lessening the seriousness of the situation is you through your refusal to accept that Islam and extremism are not the same thing. Extremism is far more complex than a simple link with a religious label, and you don't seem to recognise that.
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Post by edmundokeano on May 23, 2017 18:39:16 GMT
Meet my challenge and name as many non Muslim atrocities in the last 20 years and then name as many Muslim ones as you can. Stop hiding your head in the sand. We have a serious problem with extreme Islamists. When will you finally acknowledge it? When the inevitable attack on London's theatres happens or when they inevitably target the gay community? Stop trying to lessen the serious situation we are in. If you really believe that the only extremists that exist are Muslim then you need to open your eyes and join the real world. Extremists come in all forms of religion and none, and blaming one religious group as you seem intent on doing is not going to help anyone. The only one lessening the seriousness of the situation is you through your refusal to accept that Islam and extremism are not the same thing. Extremism is far more complex than a simple link with a religious label, and you don't seem to recognise that. So what's the common denominator of the overwhelming terrorist attacks in Europe or have I missed something? What's your solution?
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Post by poster J on May 23, 2017 18:46:36 GMT
So what's the common denominator of the overwhelming terrorist attacks in Europe or have I missed something? What's your solution? Others have already given you examples but apparently they are insufficient, presumably as they don't suit your argument. You're missing the broader point that your generalisation is wrong, but I can only bang my head against a brick wall so many times before it starts to hurt so I'm not going to go repeating myself again. I never said there was a solution, I don't profess to be any kind of counter-terrorism expert. But I do know what the solution is not - it is not bigotry, racism, xenophobia or any kind of generalisation or marginalisation of people based on their religion, culture or anything else. If we allow these kind of atrocities to breed intolerance and bigotry, then the terrorists, whatever their professed culture or creed, have won.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on May 23, 2017 18:51:05 GMT
If you really believe that the only extremists that exist are Muslim then you need to open your eyes and join the real world. Extremists come in all forms of religion and none, and blaming one religious group as you seem intent on doing is not going to help anyone. The only one lessening the seriousness of the situation is you through your refusal to accept that Islam and extremism are not the same thing. Extremism is far more complex than a simple link with a religious label, and you don't seem to recognise that. So what's the common denominator of the overwhelming terrorist attacks in Europe or have I missed something? What's your solution? This has already been said, what links Bataclan, Breivik and Belfast is ideology that sees others as inferior human beings. Sometimes nationalism, sometimes religion, sometimes political. The US has equal problems with Islamists and Right Wing terrorism, thankfully the latter, since Breivik, and apart from lone attacks like Mair aren't as big a problem here.
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Post by edmundokeano on May 23, 2017 19:01:08 GMT
So what's the common denominator of the overwhelming terrorist attacks in Europe or have I missed something? What's your solution? Others have already given you examples but apparently they are insufficient, presumably as they don't suit your argument. You're missing the broader point that your generalisation is wrong, but I can only bang my head against a brick wall so many times before it starts to hurt so I'm not going to go repeating myself again. I never said there was a solution, I don't profess to be any kind of counter-terrorism expert. But I do know what the solution is not - it is not bigotry, racism, xenophobia or any kind of generalisation or marginalisation of people based on their religion, culture or anything else. If we allow these kind of atrocities to breed intolerance and bigotry, then the terrorists, whatever their professed culture or creed, have won. So rather than offer a solution you naturally fall back upon the easy solution of labelling people as racist (remind me how Islam is a race) or xenophobic (remind me what country Islam is)... The problem is warped interpretations of Islam. The second problem is that people like you are so terrified by the prospect of being labelled as racists that you refuse to admit that truth. The police in Rochdale were restricted by the fear of being labelled racist and you know where that ended up... The problem is with a minority of Muslims but Muslims they are. You can come up with a few and far between non Muslim terrorists to make you feel superior if you like but the problem won't go away. A section of the Muslim community is a serious threat to our lifestyle and lives. And do you know what? Coming up with a handful of non Muslim terrorism attacks won't save you and/or your friends when they target theatres or gay bars... It's going to happen.
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Post by hal9000 on May 23, 2017 19:09:50 GMT
So what's the common denominator of the overwhelming terrorist attacks in Europe or have I missed something? What's your solution? What's YOUR solution? Because to me it seems like your desire is to make everyone say and repeat "Muslims Bad! Muslims Bad!".
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on May 23, 2017 19:19:35 GMT
So what's the common denominator of the overwhelming terrorist attacks in Europe or have I missed something? What's your solution? What's YOUR solution? Because to me it seems like your desire is to make everyone say and repeat "Muslims Bad! Muslims Bad!". Beware those who offer such simplistic reasoning and solutions, when it comes down to it they suck up to Saudi princes, trading any credibility for the sake of an arms deal. This is where the alt right ends up, bluster and hate becomes cowardice and hypocrisy. One of Trump's lackies even praised Saudi for not having anyone protest against them. That's because they have political protesters beheaded! Clearly Islamist extremism is just negotiable for a price. The most prolific sponsor of Islamic terrorism is just fine and dandy.
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Post by ShoesForRent on May 23, 2017 19:23:23 GMT
----Well, seeing the post after mine, I guess it's just not worth it.----
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Post by edmundokeano on May 23, 2017 19:24:27 GMT
So what's the common denominator of the overwhelming terrorist attacks in Europe or have I missed something? What's your solution? What's YOUR solution? Because to me it seems like your desire is to make everyone say and repeat "Muslims Bad! Muslims Bad!". Ban new mosques from opening for 10 years and change the laws about how long suspected Islamist extremists can be held without charge. Also fine the Internet providers for not blocking extremist sites. I can't watch dodgy film streams on Virgin media but these scum can look at how to make a bomb and the latest IS propaganda FFS!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 19:31:21 GMT
Where's the block user function on this board?
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Post by The Matthew on May 23, 2017 19:53:44 GMT
Many posts removed. Refrain from getting personal, please.
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Post by hal9000 on May 23, 2017 19:55:20 GMT
What's YOUR solution? Because to me it seems like your desire is to make everyone say and repeat "Muslims Bad! Muslims Bad!". Ban new mosques from opening for 10 years and change the laws about how long suspected Islamist extremists can be held without charge. Also fine the Internet providers for not blocking extremist sites. I can't watch dodgy film streams on Virgin media but these scum can look at how to make a bomb and the latest IS propaganda FFS! I honestly thank you for taking me seriously and responding. But what you propose does nothing in practical terms to stop disaffected young men enacting violent acts of destruction on people they despise. It doesn't stop them from using the dark web. It doesn't stop them congregating. Any more than people of a generation past were prevented from distributing gestetner prints of The Anarchist Cookbook or meeting in abandoned warehouses. The problem isn't access to information. The problem is disaffected young men who despise great groups of people and take out their hatred and self-loathing in the for, of mass murder. They are to a man self-aggrandising fundamentalists. It is foolhardy to assume that your average Muslim chemistry teacher or plumber who prays in a mosque has more in common with Islamist terrorists than, say, failed Mens Rights Activist killer Elliot Rodger.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on May 23, 2017 19:56:41 GMT
The solution?
"Keep calm and carry on"
A bit of a cliche now but the perfect, and very British, response.
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