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Post by NeilVHughes on Mar 14, 2021 18:37:54 GMT
Is it really an issue of education, we all know what is right or wrong including the perpetrators.
A lads night out, which most if not all adolescent men have partaken, the alpha male is the one considered a Jack the lad, the one lauded by the group and is the one likely to continue this behaviour into adulthood as it comes to define that person.
If ever fellow took delight in swigging, gigging, kissing, drinking, fighting
Damme, I’ll be bold to say that Jack’s the lad.
This is from the first recorded use of Jack the lad in the 1840’s and the behaviour continues to be a male trait that is considered manly and underlines why it is so difficult to eradicate as the behaviour is ingrained in our psyche.
Until we (men) make this behaviour passé in a similar way as smoking it will continue, the next time your mate behaves inappropriately it must not be lauded but challenged and at the moment that is something most men will not do as the shy and introverted are appreciative as these men provide opportunities to meet and talk to women.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 14, 2021 18:58:44 GMT
Cressida Dicks shouldn’t have been appointed commissioner in the first place and needs to now resign.
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Post by sph on Mar 14, 2021 19:33:50 GMT
Is it really an issue of education, we all know what is right or wrong including the perpetrators. A lads night out, which most if not all adolescent men have partaken, the alpha male is the one considered a Jack the lad, the one lauded by the group and is the one likely to continue this behaviour into adulthood as it comes to define that person. If ever fellow took delight in swigging, gigging, kissing, drinking, fighting Damme, I’ll be bold to say that Jack’s the lad. This is from the first recorded use of Jack the lad in the 1840’s and the behaviour continues to be a male trait that is considered manly and underlines why it is so difficult to eradicate as the behaviour is ingrained in our psyche. Until we (men) make this behaviour passé in a similar way as smoking it will continue, the next time your mate behaves inappropriately it must not be lauded but challenged and at the moment that is something most men will not do as the shy and introverted are appreciative as these men provide opportunities to meet and talk to women. Yes, I would very much like to see this "lad" behaviour stamped out and socially looked down on the way we do other toxic behaviours such as smoking. And it probably would lower the cases of sexual assault in bars/inappropriate behaviour/catcalls etc. It wouldn't necessarily have helped in a case such as Sarah Everard's though, as this was not a drunk guy in a bar behaving badly who needed to do better. This was a cold, calculating rapist and murderer. How do you deter crime on that scale? |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Mar 14, 2021 19:53:52 GMT
Agree this was cold and calculating but would not be surprised if people who knew him would have considered him a Jack the lad, it will be interesting to know if the accused was known to the victim when the case goes to court.
Most men who were ‘laddish’ in their youth carry this confidence into their adult lives and usually consider their actions as appreciated and just a bit of fun.
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Post by nick on Mar 14, 2021 20:27:53 GMT
I think the analogy to smoking is very pertinent. Used to be “cool” but is now seen by the majority as antisocial behaviour.
I think changing laddish behaviour is much tougher but needs the same type of attrition over time. And education is the key. My son’s generation is light years ahead of mine because of how he was taught by university courses or enlightened friends or many other ways. But the journey continues. We must push things further.
Like smoking there will be a tipping point. My wife is asthmatic and for much of her life she has to modify her behaviour to allow smokers to smoke (eg never going in a pub). This is where we are with women - they have to modify their behaviour because of some men’s actions. We need to turn this on it’s head so women can act normally and it’s men who have been guided to modify their behaviour. It’s not easy and it won’t be perfect but it’ll be a damn sight fairer than it is now.
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Post by nick on Mar 14, 2021 20:31:50 GMT
And before someone suggests that this is not fair on us good guys, SOMEONE has to change their behaviour and why should it always be the women?
I think a curfew has some merit. It will never happen but it’s only as ludicrous as telling women to dress differently, walk in groups, keep their keys in their hands and all the other advice they get at the moment.
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Post by nick on Mar 14, 2021 20:35:12 GMT
I'm sorry but men (ALL men) still need to be educated. I am genuinely interested in how you would do this educating. We already have compulsory courses about consent and other behaviours at most universities. While women are still scared to walk out at night we need to find more ways to change men’s behaviour. That’s done by a steady drip of education - conversation, training, statistics, debate, protest, fatherly chats, shaming and calling out bad behaviour etc etc |
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Post by daisy24601 on Mar 14, 2021 22:44:49 GMT
I'm not sure all the culprits do know it's wrong. They say it's just a bit of a laugh, she was asking for it, it's a compliment etc. What they don't seem to understand is it's intimidating, we don't know who will turn aggressive if they feel rejected.
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Post by sfsusan on Mar 17, 2021 19:05:19 GMT
I'm not sure all the culprits do know it's wrong. They say it's just a bit of a laugh, she was asking for it, it's a compliment etc. What they don't seem to understand is it's intimidating, we don't know who will turn aggressive if they feel rejected. I agree with this. From what I remember reading, most rapes are not the stranger dragging a woman into the bushes, but are done by dates, partners, acquaintances, etc. That's where education and societal shaming can help. In the US, a movement called "incel" gained some publicity a few years ago... these were "involuntary celibates", many of whom convinced themselves that women "owe" them sex. But, as several women have pointed out, they have no idea who is a good man and who isn't when out alone. This is exactly right. In some ways, women modifying their behavior to avoid violence is like all of us modifying our behavior to avoid COVID-19. We can't know if the person next to us on the Tube is a carrier or not, so we wear a mask and keep our distance. Our survival could depend on treating that (probably perfectly healthy) person as a threat. |
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Post by vickyg on Mar 17, 2021 19:39:23 GMT
I’m really surprised by the content of this thread. The ‘not all men’ line really doesn’t cut it these days and the men saying ‘well I don’t feel safe either’ has kind of blown my mind. Really, really sad.
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Post by ThereWillBeSun on Mar 18, 2021 18:26:25 GMT
Seconded ^
At the end of the day. If you're not a woman (including trans) - you have no idea what we go through. No idea. Men need to listen, challenge others and be allies. The 'not all men' is a redundant statement. Don't pretend to relate to what we have to go through. You will never know.
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Post by Dawnstar on Mar 18, 2021 19:27:28 GMT
Seconded ^ At the end of the day. If you're not a woman (including trans) - you have no idea what we go through. No idea. Men need to listen, challenge others and be allies. The 'not all men' is a redundant statement. Don't pretend to relate to what we have to go through. You will never know. Not all women go through it though. All the recent talk of all women being sexually harassed or being scared to walk on their own at night rather baffles me. I've never been sexually harassed in my life (I don't feel the one time I got wolf-whistled at by a builder when I was 17 counts) and I happily walk from the West End back up to Kings Cross after evening theatregoing with no qualms (pre-pandemic, obviously). I can only assume this is because I am plain & men aren't interested in me. So "not all men", but also "not all women" view all men as a potential threat. |
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Post by sfsusan on Mar 18, 2021 20:20:33 GMT
I don't think the issue is whether you have personally been sexually harassed as a woman, but that the fear of being a victim (of harassment, or violence, or robbery) permeates the lives and influences the behavior of most women I know. Granted, the concern about general violence against women might be a greater concern in the US, but it's not unknown in the UK.
>>I can only assume this is because I am plain & men aren't interested in me.<<
I'm sorry to see you think that. While some harassment is triggered by a woman's looks or dress, elderly nuns have been raped, so sometimes the perpetrators just want to pick on someone they feel they can victimize.
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Post by Dawnstar on Mar 18, 2021 21:24:07 GMT
>>I can only assume this is because I am plain & men aren't interested in me.<< I'm sorry to see you think that. While some harassment is triggered by a woman's looks or dress, elderly nuns have been raped, so sometimes the perpetrators just want to pick on someone they feel they can victimize. Oh yes, I agree that there are some perpetrators who will attack any one & sadly they sometimes seem to be the most violent attacks. I was thinking more of the being groped in a crowded bar sort of harassment, where I suspect men are more likely to go for a woman who has caught their eye because they think she is attractive. |
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Post by sfsusan on Mar 18, 2021 22:56:19 GMT
I was thinking more of the being groped in a crowded bar sort of harassment, where I suspect men are more likely to go for a woman who has caught their eye because they think she is attractive. Yes, I agree. It's sad, but in a way it's very liberating to get older as a woman, because a lot of that 'background' harassment just falls away. I've heard some women describe it as becoming invisible, but it is one less thing to have to put up with. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2021 10:09:48 GMT
If ever there was a compelling argument that sexism is rife in the UK*, just search 'Naga' on Twitter now and see how much hate and bile is being directed at a women who laughed at a joke a man made about the size of an MP's flag.
*could also apply in BLM thread in light of white people directing their hyperbole at a person of colour.
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Post by marob on Mar 19, 2021 11:52:45 GMT
@prof. MM Yeah I think Naga gets a lot of crap for being not just a woman, but a black woman. You get a similar ridiculous reaction to anything Diane Abbot does, only the media joins in on slagging her off.
Ben Thompson tends to laugh at stuff a lot when he’s presenting too, but that never seems to cause any fuss. I can’t help wondering would that still be the case if it was more obvious that he’s gay.
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Post by joem on Mar 24, 2021 23:30:51 GMT
So much rubbish has now become the norm that nothing surprises me. The presumption that certain groups have some form of original guilt which cannot be erased has been around for centuries, only the victims have changed.
Meanwhile innocents will continue to suffer and their aggressors will receive a slap on the wrist and a modest punishment (if any and if caught).
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Post by sfsusan on Mar 26, 2021 18:13:14 GMT
The presumption that certain groups have some form of original guilt which cannot be erased Given the levels of aggression toward women (in this case), we're not talking about 'original' guilt, we're talking about current guilt. And no, not all men are tainted with it, but is it enough to not be guilty of such behavior oneself? Perhaps guys not going along with "locker room talk" or casual sexism/misogynism would help send a message that this is unacceptable. |
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Post by schuttep on Mar 31, 2021 9:41:09 GMT
The best comment I heard about this issue was "This is not about all men, but it is about all women".
That, I think, puts it in perspective. It's about ALL women. All my female friends have told me stories about abuse and male entitlement at various levels.
I'm a 65 year old gay man and, although my experience is male-on-male, there was a period in my younger and more vulnerable days when I had to beware of (straight) men in the streets - even in daytime.
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