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Post by distantcousin on Mar 2, 2020 19:03:24 GMT
Is it me, or are increasingly the new musicals coming through usually light hearted, comedic or feel good affairs?
Except for the Les Mis and Phantom stalwarts, plus exciting revivals such as Evita, JCS and Follies, the fayre coming through from both sides of the pond seems very shy of delving into any kind of high stakes drama (e.g. with a death or two for good measure)
Personally I lament this, as I find the more dramatic musicals by far the most satisfying, but this trend seems well embedded now - a reflection of the troubled times we live in perhaps? Producers and writers think that mass audiences mainly want froth, fun and escapism?
I think the last dramatic NEW musical of the past 10 years i saw was "Fun Home"
Thoughts?
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Post by intoanewlife on Mar 2, 2020 19:34:41 GMT
Apart from a couple of 'fun' moments, The Great Comet is very dramatic it just hasn't opened here yet.
However I think it's a bit out there to crossover and turn into a Phantom style hit as it polarised a lot of people on Broadway.
I do however think London audiences would take to it better than the New Yorkers did.
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Post by viserys on Mar 2, 2020 19:54:11 GMT
I think the problem is more that the present very American "dramatic" style doesn't really work here - see Dear Evan Hansen, which is meant to be dramatic, but seems to put many people off on this side of the pond. And what about Jagged Little Pill laden with every woke issue under the millennial sun?
I'd also class Come From Away and Hadestown as rather dramatic and indeed very moving musicals - it's just that the music styles have changed and we don't get big operatic scores anymore. And the reason for that, I fear, is cost cutting. Much cheaper to have a small band of 8-10 people than the big orchestra needed for operatic scores.
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Post by intoanewlife on Mar 2, 2020 19:56:29 GMT
I think the problem is more that the present very American "dramatic" style doesn't really work here - see Dear Evan Hansen, which is meant to be dramatic, but seems to put many people off on this side of the pond. From looking at other theatre forums it was actually just as polarising there as it was here, probably even more so in fact. |
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Post by viserys on Mar 2, 2020 20:04:31 GMT
I think the problem is more that the present very American "dramatic" style doesn't really work here - see Dear Evan Hansen, which is meant to be dramatic, but seems to put many people off on this side of the pond. From looking at other theatre forums it was actually just as polarising there as it was here, probably even more so in fact. That may well be, but I was (am) baffled by how crazily it was (is) selling on Broadway and shot Ben Platt into stratospheric stardom. At least here in London demand doesn't seem to be so crazy for it and people aren't paying over the top premium prices. Anyway, the point still stands, it IS a dramatic musical, it just doesn't grip many people the way the big drama musicals of yore like Les Miz used to grip people and move them to tears both through means of storytelling and their lush epic scores. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Mar 2, 2020 20:19:37 GMT
From looking at other theatre forums it was actually just as polarising there as it was here, probably even more so in fact. That may well be, but I was (am) baffled by how crazily it was (is) selling on Broadway and shot Ben Platt into stratospheric stardom. At least here in London demand doesn't seem to be so crazy for it and people aren't paying over the top premium prices. One word...hype! It'd also played a sold out off Broadway run which no one could get tickets to, so once it went on sale for Broadway they could pretty much charge what they wanted for it. I think it was more because of Ben Platt's performance than the show itself. It was also not the biggest of theatres which made it harder to score a ticket. I never saw him, I only scored a ticket at it's peak because his under study was on. But certainly once he left the shows demand dropped considerably. The 'character' though has always copped the same criticism that has turned people off it here. Look at Hadestown but comparison. It's reception here was lukewarm to say the least, but because it'd built up so much hype over the years from its original workshop in NYC when it opened over there they just went mental for it. America is all about the hype! |
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Post by Jon on Mar 2, 2020 20:22:05 GMT
Hamilton isn't exactly jolly and that's doing just fine.
There's nothing wrong with musical comedies and some of the best classics are the ones that balance drama and comedy well like The King and I, My Fair Lady, Fiddler etc
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 2, 2020 21:09:44 GMT
I think the problem is more that the present very American "dramatic" style doesn't really work here - see Dear Evan Hansen, which is meant to be dramatic, but seems to put many people off on this side of the pond. And what about Jagged Little Pill laden with every woke issue under the millennial sun? I'd also class Come From Away and Hadestown as rather dramatic and indeed very moving musicals - it's just that the music styles have changed and we don't get big operatic scores anymore. And the reason for that, I fear, is cost cutting. Much cheaper to have a small band of 8-10 people than the big orchestra needed for operatic scores.
I don't know anything about Hadestown, and Come From Away, from what I can tell, shies away from real dramatic heft or plot, and focuses more on being "all about the feels".
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 2, 2020 21:10:50 GMT
Hamilton isn't exactly jolly and that's doing just fine. Oh yeah, I sorta pretend Hamilton doesn't exist, but I suppose that's the closest to ALW or Boubil and Schoenberg we have in the 21st century.
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Post by phantz on Mar 2, 2020 22:06:08 GMT
The Grinning Man was fairly dramatic
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Post by 49thand8th on Mar 2, 2020 22:19:24 GMT
The most dramatic works I've seen lately have all been off-Broadway: Cambodian Rock Band, Rags Parkland Sings the Songs of the Future, Soft Power. (I'm not entirely sure the latter counts, either.)
But yes, I echo the previous mention of Hadestown.
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Post by intoanewlife on Mar 2, 2020 23:02:43 GMT
Preludes is literally about someone losing their mind, but it is never going to find a mainstream audience.
I wouldn't really count Phantom or Hadestown as 'dramas', one is a Greek myth and the other is like a gothic fairytale.
Les Mis is a 2 hour musical about a stolen loaf of bread...
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Post by couldileaveyou on Mar 3, 2020 0:38:55 GMT
yeah, I feel the general complaint here is about the lack of new melodramatic material, rather than dramatic one. On and off-stage deaths (pretending for a moment that bodycount is a reliable measurement for drama) occur in pretty much all the aforementioned shows, some of them mix it with more uplifting moments (especially Come From Away), while others are more consistently bleak. Many modern musicals deal with dramatic issues more and better than the megamusicals of the 80s, especially since the removal of the bombastic elements really allows both the creatives and the audience to focus on the human ones.
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Post by intoanewlife on Mar 3, 2020 0:49:56 GMT
I think the problem is more that the present very American "dramatic" style doesn't really work here - see Dear Evan Hansen, which is meant to be dramatic, but seems to put many people off on this side of the pond. And what about Jagged Little Pill laden with every woke issue under the millennial sun? I'd also class Come From Away and Hadestown as rather dramatic and indeed very moving musicals - it's just that the music styles have changed and we don't get big operatic scores anymore. And the reason for that, I fear, is cost cutting. Much cheaper to have a small band of 8-10 people than the big orchestra needed for operatic scores.
Come From Away, from what I can tell, shies away from real dramatic heft or plot, and focuses more on being "all about the feels".
Not really, it just handles the subject matter with intelligence and isn't exploitative or emotionally manipulative. It is brilliantly conceived and directed. |
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Post by couldileaveyou on Mar 3, 2020 0:52:21 GMT
Come From Away, from what I can tell, shies away from real dramatic heft or plot, and focuses more on being "all about the feels".
Not really, it just handles the subject matter with intelligence and isn't exploitative or emotionally manipulative. It is brilliantly conceived and directed. this really nails it |
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Post by Jon on Mar 3, 2020 2:29:31 GMT
It’s wrong to describe Come from Away as feel good. It’s a show that shows that in a tragic event such as 9/11, people do come together and help each other and that’s an important message in these more conflicted times
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Post by poster J on Mar 3, 2020 7:18:38 GMT
It’s wrong to describe Come from Away as feel good. It’s a show that shows that in a tragic event such as 9/11, people do come together and help each other and that’s an important message in these more conflicted times I don't think it is wrong to describe it as feel good, for the exact reason you give. Yes, it is about a tragedy that most of us remember all too well, and there are plenty of moments which capture the impact of that in a manner which is powerful and raw. But it also shows the very best of humanity, and that's about as feel good as you can get. Something being in some ways "feel good" doesn't mean it can't also be dramatic - they are not mutually exclusive. |
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Post by ABr on Mar 3, 2020 8:31:26 GMT
Come from Away is first first show in a long time that has made me stop while listening to the cast recording! I had to listen to it in 1 sitting, all the way through, as I could tell quite early on it was something special! There are not many shows that any song from the recording can come on shuffle and I'll listen to it, but Come From Away is one of those shows!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 9:48:58 GMT
Is it me, or are increasingly the new musicals coming through usually light hearted, comedic or feel good affairs?
Except for the Les Mis and Phantom stalwarts, plus exciting revivals such as Evita, JCS and Follies, the fayre coming through from both sides of the pond seems very shy of delving into any kind of high stakes drama (e.g. with a death or two for good measure)
Personally I lament this, as I find the more dramatic musicals by far the most satisfying, but this trend seems well embedded now - a reflection of the troubled times we live in perhaps? Producers and writers think that mass audiences mainly want froth, fun and escapism?
I think the last dramatic NEW musical of the past 10 years i saw was "Fun Home"
Thoughts?
Totally get where you're coming from. And linked to this is the death of the sung through musical; which I also mourn. Very few new West End musicals are sung through nowadays. I think it's such an incredible art form, with the entire story/feelings/emotions conveyed by music. For me personally I also find it the easiest way to suspend my disbelief and fully immerse myself. Not sure if it's that the public have gone off them, or whether the ALW et al era was a one off and we have gone back to normal, whether the current film/jukebox/fluff you describe don't lead themselves to being sung through or we just don't have the composers who can write in that style currently. A combination of all I expect. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 10:38:01 GMT
Not really, it just handles the subject matter with intelligence and isn't exploitative or emotionally manipulative. I think it is emotionally manipulative, but not in a sledgehammer way like some stories are. Of all the tales they could have told from the thousands of passengers stuck in Gander, they deliberately chose ones that would get a reaction, especially the older couple that meet there. |
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Post by poster J on Mar 3, 2020 13:17:46 GMT
Not really, it just handles the subject matter with intelligence and isn't exploitative or emotionally manipulative. I think it is emotionally manipulative, but not in a sledgehammer way like some stories are. Of all the tales they could have told from the thousands of passengers stuck in Gander, they deliberately chose ones that would get a reaction, especially the older couple that meet there. Or they just chose the most interesting and different ones? Not sure that makes it emotionally manipulative so much as a senaible production decision that anyone would make. They can't tell them all otherwise one show would be weeks long... |
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Post by 49thand8th on Mar 3, 2020 17:07:41 GMT
It’s wrong to describe Come from Away as feel good. It's not wrong if the person calling it "a feel-good show" felt good while at the show. |
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Post by david on Mar 3, 2020 18:58:51 GMT
To bring a lighter note to the thread, If your looking for a new dramatic musical, maybe someone could write "Theatre Board - The Musical". Plenty of source material at hand and with all these new theatres being built finding a suitable venue shouldn't be an issue.
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Post by intoanewlife on Mar 3, 2020 19:27:50 GMT
Not really, it just handles the subject matter with intelligence and isn't exploitative or emotionally manipulative. I think it is emotionally manipulative, but not in a sledgehammer way like some stories are. Of all the tales they could have told from the thousands of passengers stuck in Gander, they deliberately chose ones that would get a reaction, especially the older couple that meet there. Most of the manipulative stuff is still just a moment here or there and glanced over, it is not misery porn like it could've been. If Americans had written it, each of these moments would have been accompanied by a 10 minute power ballad. Even the most poignant song in the whole show is about the loss of something they loved, instead of someone they loved. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Mar 3, 2020 19:32:57 GMT
Is it me, or are increasingly the new musicals coming through usually light hearted, comedic or feel good affairs?
Except for the Les Mis and Phantom stalwarts, plus exciting revivals such as Evita, JCS and Follies, the fayre coming through from both sides of the pond seems very shy of delving into any kind of high stakes drama (e.g. with a death or two for good measure)
Personally I lament this, as I find the more dramatic musicals by far the most satisfying, but this trend seems well embedded now - a reflection of the troubled times we live in perhaps? Producers and writers think that mass audiences mainly want froth, fun and escapism?
I think the last dramatic NEW musical of the past 10 years i saw was "Fun Home"
Thoughts?
Totally get where you're coming from. And linked to this is the death of the sung through musical; which I also mourn. Hamilton says Hi, Great Comet says laters...  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 21:32:09 GMT
I wonder if more "froth and escapism" is what producers think will get butts in seats at Broadway prices ... which with the expansion of dynamic pricing to more and more shows is really hitting the pocketbook. It's fairly common now for a mid-week matinee mezzanine seat to be around $200 USD. It is interesting though to scan through the Tony and Olivier award nominees for best musical by the decade. While obviously not representative of everything that was on stage, it is a quick way to check trends: Tony Award nominees: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Award_for_Best_Musical#2010s. Olivier Award nominees: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Olivier_Award_for_Best_New_Musical |
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Post by intoanewlife on Mar 3, 2020 22:51:35 GMT
I wonder if more "froth and escapism" is what producers think will get butts in seats at Broadway prices ... which with the expansion of dynamic pricing to more and more shows is really hitting the pocketbook. It's fairly common now for a mid-week matinee mezzanine seat to be around $200 USD. It is interesting though to scan through the Tony and Olivier award nominees for best musical by the decade. While obviously not representative of everything that was on stage, it is a quick way to check trends: Tony Award nominees: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Award_for_Best_Musical#2010s. Olivier Award nominees: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Olivier_Award_for_Best_New_MusicalI think because things are so dark over the last few years that the general public want escapism in their entertainment over realism. |
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Post by marypoppins on Mar 4, 2020 9:12:17 GMT
I suppose it depends on your definitions of dramatic. Waitress deals with some gritty story lines, as does calendar girls and rather surprisingly so did the take that musical (I was just as surprised as everyone else!).
I think like every genre things change and at some point there will be a revival of the more operatic and melodramatic style of musical.
But I think for now, the theatres need bums on seats and whilst I love going to the theatre and crying for 2-3hours straight, not everyone does!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 9:33:36 GMT
Totally get where you're coming from. And linked to this is the death of the sung through musical; which I also mourn. Hamilton says Hi, Great Comet says laters... Haha, well I’ll say Hi back to Comet if and when she opens in the UK. Ahhhh, Hamilton of course. But it increasingly seems a one off and certainly hasn’t turned back the tide of the non sung through style! |
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