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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 20, 2019 18:44:29 GMT
Adding a different perspective from Neil, I have long been a liberal and must stress that this is not something that is the property of one party. Liberals, Social Democrats, Socialists, Greens and also saner elements of conservatism are allies in this and we should be working together hand in hand.
These elements are, with rare exception, also anti Brexit and these two challenges should mean that co-operation is seen as a necessity rather than frantically trying to seek sole power. Without this co-operation, anyone of those groups will be just as responsible for the fallout.
There is no majority in this country for the reactionary forces that are currently in government, The first goal should be to enable an electoral system that stops that reactionary plurality from gaining power because of division among its opponents,
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Post by amp09 on Sept 20, 2019 19:07:25 GMT
Adding a different perspective from Neil, I have long been a liberal and must stress that this is not something that is the property of one party. Liberals, Social Democrats, Socialists, Greens and also saner elements of conservatism are allies in this and we should be working together hand in hand. These elements are, with rare exception, also anti Brexit and these two challenges should mean that co-operation is seen as a necessity rather than frantically trying to seek sole power. Without this co-operation, anyone of those groups will be just as responsible for the fallout. There is no majority in this country for the reactionary forces that are currently in government, The first goal should be to enable an electoral system that stops that reactionary plurality from gaining power because of division among its opponents, If you’re talking about changing how we vote at elections, there was a AV referendum which was voted down. We don’t need to bring that back anytime soon unless public opinion shifts massively, which hasn’t as far as I’m aware. ‘Saner elements of Conservatism’ - are you saying the opposite side are insane?
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Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 20, 2019 19:09:44 GMT
Again with you Cardinal, always seen myself as being a more centrist Liberal, the negative associations of full JC are difficult to shed.
What I wanted to do was highlight what I have encountered since the Prorogation of Parliament for political ends which is what made me become Politically active for the first time in my life. (If my voice in Parliament is silenced the only choice I have is to use my own voice)
Coming back to the Climate rally, whether we believe in Climate Change or this is the manifestation of larger concerns there definitely is something happening as the numbers involved and the age profile needs to be taken seriously (which only one Party seems to be) and should not be dismissed as skiving school kids who wanted to get off Double Maths and Shakespeare studies.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 20, 2019 19:16:57 GMT
Adding a different perspective from Neil, I have long been a liberal and must stress that this is not something that is the property of one party. Liberals, Social Democrats, Socialists, Greens and also saner elements of conservatism are allies in this and we should be working together hand in hand. These elements are, with rare exception, also anti Brexit and these two challenges should mean that co-operation is seen as a necessity rather than frantically trying to seek sole power. Without this co-operation, anyone of those groups will be just as responsible for the fallout. There is no majority in this country for the reactionary forces that are currently in government, The first goal should be to enable an electoral system that stops that reactionary plurality from gaining power because of division among its opponents, If you’re talking about changing how we vote at elections, there was a AV referendum which was voted down. We don’t need to bring that back anytime soon unless public opinion shifts massively, which hasn’t as far as I’m aware. ‘Saner elements of Conservatism’ - are you saying the opposite side are insane? AV is not a proportional system, it’s not surprising it was binned. The idea that a government can be formed on fewer than 50% of votes is just wrong. It is also why this unholy mix of referendum and election has got us into this mess. If an election can be won with a plurality of votes, yet a referendum needs a majority, there are two elements of democracy that can never be made to work together. Ther are elements of both wings of politics whose sanity is suspect.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 20, 2019 19:22:18 GMT
Coming back to the Climate rally, whether we believe in Climate Change or this is the manifestation of larger concerns there definitely is something happening as the numbers involved and the age profile needs to be taken seriously (which only one Party seems to be) and should not be dismissed as skiving school kids who wanted to get off Double Maths and Shakespeare studies. There are supporters of the range of ideologies I suggested within this movement, and a member of The Green party would, I imagine, be particularly miffed at you missing them out, given that this is their main platform! I lived through the eighties and the Labour party’s attempt at full blooded socialism then and it proved to me the implausibility of it becoming a majority force in this country. As, maybe, a senior party in a coalition under a PR system? That’s probably the greatest chance of some of those sort of policies being enacted. Ideological purity doesn’t seem to allow for that though, yet all or nothing usually means, well, nothing.
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Post by amp09 on Sept 20, 2019 19:29:08 GMT
If you’re talking about changing how we vote at elections, there was a AV referendum which was voted down. We don’t need to bring that back anytime soon unless public opinion shifts massively, which hasn’t as far as I’m aware. ‘Saner elements of Conservatism’ - are you saying the opposite side are insane? AV is not a proportional system, it’s not surprising it was binned. The idea that a government can be formed on fewer than 50% of votes is just wrong. It is also why this unholy mix of referendum and election has got us into this mess. If an election can be won with a plurality of votes, yet a referendum needs a majority, there are two elements of democracy that can never be made to work together. Ther are elements of both wings of politics whose sanity is suspect. Well they’ve been formed that way for many years in one of the most stable and democratic countries in the world. They’ve also worked fine together in the past. Just because things didn’t go a certain way, people have thrown their toys out of the pram. To call anyone insane for holding political views is rather wrong.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 20, 2019 19:31:17 GMT
Sorry, should have clarified, had their Leaders participating and addressing the rally, surprised the Green Party leaders weren’t present, but they may have been and I have not been able to find any reference on the web or in the mainstream press.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 20, 2019 19:38:54 GMT
AV is not a proportional system, it’s not surprising it was binned. The idea that a government can be formed on fewer than 50% of votes is just wrong. It is also why this unholy mix of referendum and election has got us into this mess. If an election can be won with a plurality of votes, yet a referendum needs a majority, there are two elements of democracy that can never be made to work together. Ther are elements of both wings of politics whose sanity is suspect. Well they’ve been formed that way for many years in one of the most stable and democratic countries in the world. They’ve also worked fine together in the past. Just because things didn’t go a certain way, people have thrown their toys out of the pram. To call anyone insane for holding political views is rather wrong. The past is not necessarily a good fit with the present and, even less so, with the future. I’ve been a supporter of PR since the seventies, so I’m hardly reacting to current events. Political insanity is not be the same animal as the full blown condition, though Trump seems to be trying his best to conflate the two (his attempts to blackmail the Ukraine, for one, certainly seem to have somewhat overstepped the mark).
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 20, 2019 19:45:30 GMT
Sorry, should have clarified, had their Leaders participating and addressing the rally, surprised the Green Party leaders weren’t present, but they may have been and I have not been able to find any reference on the web or in the mainstream press. I believe Caroline Lucas was in Brighton for the protest there and Sian Berry in Bristol, with Jo Swinson in Glasgow. Other cities, towns and villages are available besides London!
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Post by londonpostie on Sept 20, 2019 19:55:03 GMT
Slightly out of touch, does this still require a Friday afternoon off school?
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Post by kathryn on Sept 20, 2019 20:16:05 GMT
Again with the greatest respect - do you see this as just a fad? This may be the biggest protest the world has ever seen! Do you not believe the scientists when they say we are f***ed? Yes, it is just another phase in society, what Cohen may define as "moral panic" if you like. And absolutely no, I don't believe those scientists for two reasons: first, I hear it every year, and according to them I should have died every week for the last 40 years I've been old enough to read newspapers. Second, scientists and journalists both need to publish in order to keep working, and neither understand each other that well. Sure, I accept that measuring equipment has recorded temperature changes, and that over a short time period that has happened. What I don't have anything like enough information on is setting it against centuries, millennia, eons. I'd like that, but it isn't there. I understand very well the need for scientists to publish - I work in academic publishing. The need to publish does not invalidate results on well-run, reputable journals with good peer review in place. It’s observable. It is measurable. It’s been a field of research for decades so there has been enough time for predictions to be made and tested against reality. The scientific consensus is very clear. Reality has actually outstripped the projections - the glaciers are melting faster than they thought they would.
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Post by amp09 on Sept 20, 2019 20:16:08 GMT
Slightly out of touch, does this still require a Friday afternoon off school? Give them all detention on Monday.
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Post by profquatermass on Sept 20, 2019 20:29:24 GMT
If we all just sat around waiting for the government to change things, 50% of us wouldn't have the vote and Britain would have taken part in the Vietnam War. Oh and a substantial number of posters would probably be in prison for sexual offences. And India would still be under British rule. Harold Wilson refused the request to join US in Vietnam, so government decision. But I take your point on the other things. I know. But why did he refuse when when the Aussies joined in? The point about protests is they affect government action. Thus the reason we don't have a poll tax
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Post by Phantom of London on Sept 20, 2019 20:34:37 GMT
Wouldn’t it be awesome if the Alistair Beaton’s play ‘Fracked! Or don’t use the F-word’ finally transferred from Chichester to the Wyndham Theatre, preferably with James Bolan.
And next door in the Garrick you had Mike Bartlett’s Earthquakes in London.
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Post by lynette on Sept 20, 2019 21:28:33 GMT
Harold Wilson refused the request to join US in Vietnam, so government decision. But I take your point on the other things. I know. But why did he refuse when when the Aussies joined in? The point about protests is they affect government action. Thus the reason we don't have a poll tax Geography and the idea of dominoes so fear of the spread of communism thru Southern Asia. Wilson rightly saw it wasn’t a geographic problem for U.K. and he stood firm against the US pressure. IMO thank goodness.
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Post by lynette on Sept 20, 2019 21:49:21 GMT
One interesting thing that is happening now in relation to public pressure is that political parties are picking and choosing their policies rather than presenting one solid stance which people are 'born' into. So the political parties of tradition in U.K. are fragmenting with people moving from one to another and parties actually splitting fundamentally. Interesting but scary because when we vote, when we 'tell' the politicians what we think, it is difficult to choose one party ....unless that party has one idea such as the Brexit Party. Hence a referendum, one issue to vote on. But not actually a good way to govern. In the U.K. we are moving towards a proportional representation system, quite rapidly with deals to be done and alliances shifting. Again, scary for U.K., we are not used to it. And it allows for extremists having influence as you can see in Israel for example where the ultra Orthodox often dictate terms. And it allows for blurring of principles as politicians compromise and bargain, as for example with the tuition fee question which caught out the Lib Dems in the coalition government.
Personally I fear for the future but I also have faith in the next generation though I think they will suffer.
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Post by The Matthew on Sept 20, 2019 22:22:41 GMT
It’s observable. It is measurable. It’s been a field of research for decades so there has been enough time for predictions to be made and tested against reality. The scientific consensus is very clear. Reality has actually outstripped the projections - the glaciers are melting faster than they thought they would. This is what I find so incredibly frustrating about the likes of Trump and others who deny climate change. Consider the greenhouse effect, for instance. At core the science is very simple; a child could understand it, and I certainly did as a child. The facts about both the quantity and physical properties of greenhouse gases are irrefutable. And yet deniers somehow imagine that there must be something wrong somewhere and the greenhouse gases can't be a problem, even though they haven't a shred of evidence of how that could be the case. I've encountered far too many people whose attitude to science is "I don't understand it, so it must be beyond human understanding, so those who claim to understand it and come to conclusions I don't like must be mistaken". It bothers me far more than it should that some people can't accept that others know more about a subject than they do and the fact they know more does actually make their opinions more valid.
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Post by londonpostie on Sept 21, 2019 6:34:57 GMT
For as long as there has been good evidence of climate change, the issue has been whether change is natural in nature - as was the case with, for example, 5 ice ages, or is influenced by human behaviour. And on that point, evidential-based science has developed.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 21, 2019 9:58:52 GMT
I understand very well the need for scientists to publish - I work in academic publishing. The need to publish does not invalidate results on well-run, reputable journals with good peer review in place. Sorry, kathryn , I should have been clearer. I was referring to newspaper and mass media publishing, not well-reviewed academic type. I'm talking about the scientist who tells a journalist "there may be a bit of warm weather this year" that becomes "heatwave disaster will kill a billion." Hence my second paragraph. There’s been a recent trend in broadcast weather forecasts whereby they talk about competing possible outcomes and that is much more effective and educational. Of course, ‘5% chance of the worst storm ever to hit the UK’ doesn’t sell papers, and that, in a nutshell is where the problem lies. On the other hand, readers of those same newspapers refuse to believe the compelling view on human instigated climate change. It’s just unfathomable, the amount of people who will believe any old crap, whilst denying what is demonstrably real.
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Post by edi on Sept 21, 2019 14:43:13 GMT
This morning? No, but then I haven't been paying it much attention. But there are plenty of people saying similar things from previous events, so if I cared enough I'd probably find the same thing. It's not for you or anyone else to decide that someone cannot go about their daily business. Get in people's way, and their thought process is going to be closer to "Shut up and move" than to "Oh my, I wonder what made all these people care so much? I'd better give them what they want!". but then u could argue we should get rid of Pride marches so it doesnt annoy people. Or that musical weekend they have in Trafalgar Sq. Or sporting events/gigs at stadiums. or nude bike riding. all these things can stop people going about their day to day business but we dont mind coz its life I live and work in central London so most events affect me personally. I must admit a get slightly annoyed with cycling events; I seem to have to take a huge detour around them. However it's hard to get annoyed with protesters. These issues are serious and some inconvenience is not unreasonable. I must admit I felt a little intimidated when I had to pass the student fee protesters some years ago. I think most people are not affected personally as the majority works/lives miles away from Whitehall
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 16:38:24 GMT
I nearly voted Green in 1989 Euro Elections when they polled 15% and David Icke was in the party. I'll do my recycling bit and if I was the protesters age then I might be more into it. But with all the homeless on the streets and Brexit to sort out there are bigger fish to currently fry.
Can anyone remember when Sting was going through his rainforest phase and he had a tribal chief who had like a wooden discus in his mouth and a blanket over his shoulders trailing around with him.
The people who preach global warming but take private jets really get my goat as being hypocrites too.
But I'd say if the younger demographic are really into this issue then the two main parties need to embrace it to try and capture their votes.
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Post by poster J on Sept 22, 2019 14:09:44 GMT
However it's hard to get annoyed with protesters. These issues are serious and some inconvenience is not unreasonable. I disagree. It's very easy and justified to get annoyed with them when they do moronic things like gluing themselves to trains. When they stop me from getting home and I can't avoid them they differentiate themselves from sporting events and the like which are planned and disruption advertised well in advance so you can plan ahead. These idiots lost any goodwill they would have got from me when they started pulling those kind of silly stunts.
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Post by hannechalk on Sept 25, 2019 10:26:15 GMT
The trouble is that normal people won't 'put up with' disruption without being completely turned off the people and supposed 'message' that caused it. If it takes me three hours to get to work instead of one, I don't give a damn what the people who caused that disruption have to say. Especially if they're kids with zero clue about earning a living. Protest, go on TV if anyone will let you, get published in as many places as possible - but when people are trying to go somewhere, get out of the way. It does nobody any favours. Do you know ANYONE that took 3 hours to get to work this morning rather than their normal 1? Or someone not getting to a job interview? or ambulances not getting through? or is this all mild hysterics? After the last few protests in Bristol, where roads leading to three hospitals were blocked (including the children's hospital), there were various complaints from emergency personnel that emergency vehicles had been hindered getting to their destination. The crowd did not part to let them through as they had promised. Imagine you're a parent just nipping home to get showered and changed, and you can't get back to your ill child, because of a protest. During the last one a person missed out on saying goodbye to a dieing parent, because they couldn't get through. People travelling to or from their jobs by bus were also stuck for long periods, and not getting paid the usual because they couldn't get to work in time. That's not a small inconvenience to someone's day.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 11:05:48 GMT
Do you know ANYONE that took 3 hours to get to work this morning rather than their normal 1? Or someone not getting to a job interview? or ambulances not getting through? or is this all mild hysterics? After the last few protests in Bristol, where roads leading to three hospitals were blocked (including the children's hospital), there were various complaints from emergency personnel that emergency vehicles had been hindered getting to their destination. The crowd did not part to let them through as they had promised. Imagine you're a parent just nipping home to get showered and changed, and you can't get back to your ill child, because of a protest. During the last one a person missed out on saying goodbye to a dieing parent, because they couldn't get through. People travelling to or from their jobs by bus were also stuck for long periods, and not getting paid the usual because they couldn't get to work in time. That's not a small inconvenience to someone's day. Have you got a link about the ambulances not being let through?? Can’t find anything online about it in the Bristol press. I could find that the protest didn’t start until 10.45am there so as to be less disruption to people going to work
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 15:31:40 GMT
I can see people getting angry with protesters and things turning physical if these allegations are true. Wait until Greta's head starts spinning and she gets the demonic voice on Halloween.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 25, 2019 16:18:31 GMT
I can see people getting angry with protesters and things turning physical if these allegations are true. Wait until Greta's head starts spinning and she gets the demonic voice on Halloween. Not another man, so scared of a sixteen year old with opinions that they reveal their true self? The attempt to paint her as demonic is disgusting. Have you no shame?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 22:38:57 GMT
I can see people getting angry with protesters and things turning physical if these allegations are true. Wait until Greta's head starts spinning and she gets the demonic voice on Halloween. Not another man, so scared of a sixteen year old with opinions that they reveal their true self? The attempt to paint her as demonic is disgusting. Have you no shame? She isn't a demon just has a rather sinister look think Christina Ricci in the Addams Family. People have no sense of humour. My true self is here but will we see Greta's soon "What a wonderful day for an exorcism! "
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 25, 2019 23:20:03 GMT
Not another man, so scared of a sixteen year old with opinions that they reveal their true self? The attempt to paint her as demonic is disgusting. Have you no shame? She isn't a demon just has a rather sinister look think Christina Ricci in the Addams Family. People have no sense of humour. My true self is here but will we see Greta's soon "What a wonderful day for an exorcism!” Posting once would have been a massive error of judgement. The thing is, you tried the same thing earlier on qnother thread. You obviously wanted responses, so crack on then, who else do you want to dehumanise?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2019 0:27:42 GMT
She isn't a demon just has a rather sinister look think Christina Ricci in the Addams Family. People have no sense of humour. My true self is here but will we see Greta's soon "What a wonderful day for an exorcism!” Posting once would have been a massive error of judgement. The thing is, you tried the same thing earlier on qnother thread. You obviously wanted responses, so crack on then, who else do you want to dehumanise? Name a subject and I'll have a crack at it. Dehumanisation is a long word, its been around since Richard the 3rd.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Sept 26, 2019 0:42:21 GMT
Posting once would have been a massive error of judgement. The thing is, you tried the same thing earlier on qnother thread. You obviously wanted responses, so crack on then, who else do you want to dehumanise? Name a subject and I'll have a crack at it. Dehumanisation is a long word, its been around since Richard the 3rd. So, eighties synth-pop bands it is, then......
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