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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2019 18:37:41 GMT
Sometimes in my car on a long journey... Your poor, poor family. How dare you Sir! Have you even HEARD my ‘Red & Black’? 😂
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 20:05:52 GMT
To me though, the difference isn't better/worse acting, it's presence/absence of acting. It is clear if you've seen both, which I have. Sigh, but to each their own. You just cant help yourself, can you. We get it, your a JOJ groupie, no need to labour the point.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 20:25:26 GMT
No need to be impolite, either.
I don’t think it’s overstating the case, or being snobbish, to suggest that the term ‘musical theatre’ implies both good singing and good acting. Therefore anyone not fulfilling the job description on both counts could arguably be viewed as lacking.
I think Alfie Boe has a beautiful voice but can’t act. I think JOJ has a beautiful voice and can act. I also think JOJ has the vocal stamina for a West End show but Boe does not, and it’s seen a lot of his fans short changed. Rewarding that with a filmed extravaganza leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
I also think it’s a shame we’re getting yet another recording of Boe’s JVJ when we already have the O2 performance. I understand why it’s being done (the Boe/Ball combo bringing in lots of dosh for CamMack) but I do feel it devalues the product a little when neither are outstanding in their roles.
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Post by miz on Nov 5, 2019 20:40:15 GMT
Was it something I said??? Just joking. Anyway, I hope this Forum remains to be a place where theatre-goers can air their opinions freely. And I trust that the moderators will step in if uncalled-for comments were ever posted. If my comments are erased by them, I will know I have stepped over the line because I sometimes post a comment at the risk of being bashed by people who don't agree with me. But I don't mind being bashed as long as those people are arguing with their honest opinions. I don't want this Forum to be a place where people are afraid of posting a comment.
With that, let me repeat I have ABSOLUTELY no problem acknowledging that AB is a commercially far more successful performer than JOJ and I certainly don't have anything against AB fans. A few of my theatre-going frends are, in fact, fans of both JOJ and AB and we don't intend to poinson each other.
Having said that, I am still of the opinion that, as JVJ, JOJ is a more suitable (I am choosing my words carefully here) performer than AB since I don't think AB's singing style perfectly suits the role. Not because he is a bad performer but because he is a singer. I believe JVJ is an actor's role (well, it's a musical play even in a concert format. See the 10th anniversary video for reference). That's why I wished JOJ's brilliance in the role could be introduced to the general public via live streaming AS WELL AS AB's.
As for the celebrity culture vs quality, I can give a good example. More than 10 years ago, there was a production of La Cage aux Folles at the Menier Chocolate Factory with Philip Quast as George and Douglas Hodge as Albin. It transfered to the Playhouse and, after a while, Roger Allam came in as Albin.I would say this was a dream combination. Going to see them perform together was a highlight of my theatre-going life. But, sadly, the incomparable PQ and RA are not household names and, true to form, the house was never full.Then there was a cast change and in came John Barrowman who immediately filled the seats. I can't remember who was cast as George against JB but I think I made my point clear.
Obviously,commercial theatres need to generate profit, but if name-casting continues to be the norm, the standards of both performers and audience will go down in the long run. And that could lead to the decline of the British theatre industry. Let us hope it will never happen.
I am aware that not everyone will agree with my view and that's fine. Your opposing opinions are welcome. Thank you for reading.
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Post by miz on Nov 5, 2019 20:50:21 GMT
Off topic and probably one for the unpopular opinions thread, but I have never got the love for Ramin Karimloo at all. *runs and hides* I love Ramin, but I don't hate you . I would appreciate it if you could share your reasons. I personally rate his portrayal of JVJ as highly as JOJ's.
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Post by miz on Nov 5, 2019 20:55:21 GMT
I'm sure this has probably come up in the past & I apologise if it has (I'm new-ish around these parts!) but if you could choose your dream/definitive cast for Les Mis, who would you choose? Time & age doesn't matter in your dream cast productions by the way! JVJ: John Owen Jones Javet: Philip Quast Fantine: Ruthie Henshall Cossette: Katie Hall Eponine: Frances Ruffelle Enjoloras: Ramin Karimloo/Bradley Jaden Marius: M Ball Thenardier: Steven Meo M. Thenardier: Katy Secombe or Jenny Galloway I would ADD Earl Carpenter as Javert, David Thaxton as Enjolras (he is the embodiment of Enjolras in the original novel), Martin Ball as Thenardier.
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Post by miz on Nov 5, 2019 21:02:23 GMT
Three Phantoms? That’s not for the UK presumably?, China January 2020 with Earl Carpenter and Jeremy Secomb I am seriously thinking of flying over to Shanghai to see this show. I am a big fan of the 3 Phantoms, and I welcome the new member, Mr. Secomb, as I remember being very much impressed by his Javert. I didn't know he has also played the Phantom. It makes the show 3 Phantoms and 2 Javerts. The problem is how to purchase tickets. At the moment, the website seems to allow only Chinese people to purchase tickets.
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2019 21:11:14 GMT
Was Carpenter Javert when the 25th tour started in Cardiff? If so he was excellent and would have been a much more appropriate casting than bankable Balls. But I totally get that for the purpose of this production they’ve gone with him...I’d have gone for Biggins.
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Post by miz on Nov 5, 2019 21:16:58 GMT
Was Carpenter Javert when the 25th tour started in Cardiff? If so he was excellent and would have been a much more appropriate casting than bankable Balls. But I totally get that for the purpose of this production they’ve gone with him...I’d have gone for Biggins. Yes he was. I was there for the very first performance.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 21:37:40 GMT
As for the celebrity culture vs quality, I can give a good example. More than 10 years ago, there was a production of La Cage aux Folles at the Menier Chocolate Factory with Philip Quast as George and Douglas Hodge as Albin. It transfered to the Playhouse and, after a while, Roger Allam came in as Albin.I would say this was a dream combination. Going to see them perform together was a highlight of my theatre-going life. But, sadly, the incomparable PQ and RA are not household names and, true to form, the house was never full.Then there was a cast change and in came John Barrowman who immediately filled the seats. I can't remember who was cast as George against JB but I think I made my point clear.
I'm not sure that is a good example, as John Barrowman was a seasoned West End and Broadway musical theatre performer before he became a household name. So his casting in La Cage Aux Folles makes perfect sense from a creative and commercial point of view. The fact you preferred Roger Allam in the role is neither here nor there.
That's what I don't understand about this Alfie Boe/celebrity arguement. Alfie is not new to the role of Valjean, and I would argue that his mainstream success came after playing the role at the O2. His popularity as Valjean certainly boosted his profile somewhat. So it seems odd it's now being turned around to say he was only cast in this concert run because he's a celebrity.
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Post by theoracle on Nov 5, 2019 21:43:39 GMT
I'm sure this has probably come up in the past & I apologise if it has (I'm new-ish around these parts!) but if you could choose your dream/definitive cast for Les Mis, who would you choose? Time & age doesn't matter in your dream cast productions by the way! JVJ: John Owen Jones Javet: Philip Quast Fantine: Ruthie Henshall Cossette: Katie Hall Eponine: Frances Ruffelle Enjoloras: Ramin Karimloo/Bradley Jaden Marius: M Ball Thenardier: Steven Meo M. Thenardier: Katy Secombe or Jenny Galloway For me... JVJ: Colm Wilkinson Javert: Earl Carpenter Fantine: Sierra Boggess Cossette: Judy Kuhn Eponine: Carrie Hope Fletcher/Lea Salonga Enjolras: Ramin Karimloo/Bradley Jaden Marius: Rob Houchen Thernadier: Matt Lucas Madam Thernadier: Emma Thompson (I know she hasn't done it but she would be fantastic)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 21:46:47 GMT
Graham Norton in La Cage was celebrity stunt casting. I was there one NYE and because of all the cast illnesses, he was brought in a week or 2 before he was actually due to start.
Suffice to say, he was under rehearsed and terrible. i kind if felt sorry for him being thrown on so early.
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Post by indis on Nov 5, 2019 21:50:22 GMT
For me... JVJ: JOJ/Killian Donnely Javert: Tam Mutu/Bradley Jaden/Leo Roberts Fantine: Celinde Schoenmaker Cossette: Zoe Doano Eponine: Eva Noblezada/Lea Salonga Enjolras: Anton Zetterholm Marius: Rob Houchen Thernadier: the actor from the 10th anniversay (forgot the name) Madam Thernadier: Wendy Ferguson
and if i could ask a wish/dream : Harriet Jones as Fantine
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Post by miz on Nov 5, 2019 22:28:32 GMT
Furet, JB can't act. He can sing, has a big voice and is incredibly handsome, but, I could not call his performance in this musical acting.
If the paring of PQ and RA can't draw the crowed, what was the world coming to? was what I was thinking.
As for the casting of AB in the semi-staged version, I agree that it makes a perfect commercial sense. He is a far better known JVJ than JOJ. And I certainly don't blame him for being cast.
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Post by Dave25 on Nov 5, 2019 23:06:58 GMT
Off topic and probably one for the unpopular opinions thread, but I have never got the love for Ramin Karimloo at all. *runs and hides* I share this opinion. I think Ramin does not sing, but howl. Hysterically. Constantly. Never is a note relaxed. The thing that irritates me the most of that, is that nearly all of his notes are so tense/hysterical that they are above the actual note it should be. he's always sharp. For example, the words: "secretly, secretly" in Phantom should be sung in a very seductive, silky, way, and it should be the same note. Ramin starts the first "se" already a note too high, elevating the "cret" to a whole different note, and the "ly" is 3 notes higher. This man is completely creating his own melodies. When I watched Les Mis with him as Valjean I was completely stunned that in Valjean's Soliloquy, NOT 1 note was on key. Not 1. I couldn't handle it. Also, in the 25th Les Mis concert, his Enjolras makes me laugh, it's a complete parody.
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Post by 141920grm on Nov 5, 2019 23:49:48 GMT
At risk of being crucified for being a snob I have to agree, Ramin as a musical theatre actor in my opinion is another example of hype preceding talent, he's extremely expressive but frequently over-emotes which negatively affects his singing. He's a bit painful to listen to, as someone with perfect pitch. And thank god getting the pitch right is not a debatable matter, you're either singing in tune, or you're not.
I'm sure he's probably amazing in other less musically/singing-based roles.
(uhh slightly off-topic but now I'm very curious to hear a vocals-only track for POTO 25th just to torture myself, I'm watching a clip of it right now and it does feel like my brain is automatically adjusting Ramin's pitch to match the orchestra's......)
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Post by David J on Nov 6, 2019 0:40:11 GMT
Dream cast, based on whom I've seen live
Jean Valjean: John Owen Jones/Geromino Rauch Javert: Jeremy Secomb/Tam Mutu Fantine: Rachelle Ann Go/Sierra Boggess Thenardier: Steven Meo/Martin Ball (though if there was one who put the comedy first and worked for me it would be Tom Edden) Mme Thenardier: Vivien Parry Marius: Craig Mather Enjorlas: Bradley Jaden
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Post by indis on Nov 6, 2019 4:27:01 GMT
funny that some here don’t like Ramins Voice, i do but if we can share opinions here without gettinf roasted: What is so good about Frances Ruffele? her voice is so squeaky like Donald Duck 🤣 and even worse is Colm Wilkinson: singing like he is chewing gum all the time with no special voice colour at all🤷🏻♀️
that had to get out: only good vibes from now on again 😊
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Post by carmella1 on Nov 6, 2019 4:34:01 GMT
I saw Ramin in LM when he was supposed to be so wonderful. There were 3 of us all disappointed in his performance. Hadley Fraser was wonderful as Javert and much better than Ramin. And I have heard BHH sung much better than him by others without his name. When ALW put him on the dvd of Phantom it literally made him.
And previous up the thread I was reading how some people thought Hugh Jackman was good. Possibly the worst sung JVJ of all time.
How can anyone forget David Thaxton's Enjorlas just wonderful. And a great Javert as well.
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Post by indis on Nov 6, 2019 6:17:41 GMT
never saw Thaxton as Enjolras but as Javert he was „ok“
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Post by nefertari on Nov 6, 2019 7:24:28 GMT
China January 2020 with Earl Carpenter and Jeremy Secomb I am seriously thinking of flying over to Shanghai to see this show. I am a big fan of the 3 Phantoms, and I welcome the new member, Mr. Secomb, as I remember being very much impressed by his Javert. I didn't know he has also played the Phantom. It makes the show 3 Phantoms and 2 Javerts. The problem is how to purchase tickets. At the moment, the website seems to allow only Chinese people to purchase tickets. I just checked the website. And yes you need to have Wechat Pay or Alipay to buy tickets. Front row ticket costs £142. Almost twice the price of the Lesmiz concert. I give up. >.<
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Post by miz on Nov 6, 2019 8:02:30 GMT
I am seriously thinking of flying over to Shanghai to see this show. I am a big fan of the 3 Phantoms, and I welcome the new member, Mr. Secomb, as I remember being very much impressed by his Javert. I didn't know he has also played the Phantom. It makes the show 3 Phantoms and 2 Javerts. The problem is how to purchase tickets. At the moment, the website seems to allow only Chinese people to purchase tickets. I just checked the website. And yes you need to have Wechat Pay or Alipay to buy tickets. Front row ticket costs £142. Almost twice the price of the Lesmiz concert. I give up. >.< Thank you for checking the website. Do you read Chinese? My last resort will be to fly out to China just to buy tickets directly from the theatre. But that might make me look like a mad person...
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Post by nefertari on Nov 6, 2019 8:35:05 GMT
I just checked the website. And yes you need to have Wechat Pay or Alipay to buy tickets. Front row ticket costs £142. Almost twice the price of the Lesmiz concert. I give up. >.< Thank you for checking the website. Do you read Chinese? My last resort will be to fly out to China just to buy tickets directly from the theatre. But that might make me look like a mad person... No problem. Yes I am Chinese and read Chinese. I left a message at the ticket office social media wondering if they have other payment choices. No one’s answering me yet. I’ll let you know if there’s any.
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Post by eponineserrand on Nov 6, 2019 8:54:15 GMT
funny that some here don’t like Ramins Voice, i do but if we can share opinions here without gettinf roasted: What is so good about Frances Ruffele? her voice is so squeaky like Donald Duck 🤣 and even worse is Colm Wilkinson: singing like he is chewing gum all the time with no special voice colour at all🤷🏻♀️ that had to get out: only good vibes from now on again 😊 I like her because I think she's most like Eponine in the book. I was truly heartbroken for her and she's the only person who's made me truly sob when she dies. Frances gave me the impression of an innocent person caught up in this tough life and suffering from unrequited love. The more modern Eponine's sing beautifully but for me lack the same emotion in their voice. Sounds an odd thing to say in musical theatre but they project and sound too perfect to be Eponine for me. In my opinion the best performers are the ones who can make me feel their story - although I know this is a highly debatable subject!
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Post by David J on Nov 6, 2019 8:58:47 GMT
Dream cast, based on whom I've seen live Jean Valjean: John Owen Jones/Geromino Rauch Javert: Jeremy Secomb/Tam Mutu Fantine: Rachelle Ann Go/Sierra Boggess Thenardier: Steven Meo/Martin Ball (though if there was one who put the comedy first and worked for me it would be Tom Edden) Mme Thenardier: Vivien Parry Marius: Craig Mather Enjorlas: Bradley Jaden Oh and before I forget Carrie Hope Fletcher as Eponine
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Post by miz on Nov 6, 2019 9:09:57 GMT
Thank you for checking the website. Do you read Chinese? My last resort will be to fly out to China just to buy tickets directly from the theatre. But that might make me look like a mad person... No problem. Yes I am Chinese and read Chinese. I left a message at the ticket office social media wondering if they have other payment choices. No one’s answering me yet. I’ll let you know if there’s any. nefartari, thank you so much ! 😘 I will keep checking this thread. At the moment, a return ticket to Shanghai can be had for under 700 pounds and I wouldn't mind a weekend in Shanghai but it is a long way.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 6, 2019 9:54:31 GMT
No problem. Yes I am Chinese and read Chinese. I left a message at the ticket office social media wondering if they have other payment choices. No one’s answering me yet. I’ll let you know if there’s any. nefartari, thank you so much ! 😘 I will keep checking this thread. At the moment, a return ticket to Shanghai can be had for under 700 pounds and I wouldn't mind a weekend in Shanghai but it is a long way. You could probably hire JOJ for a one to one singing demo for that kind of dosh!
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Post by miz on Nov 6, 2019 12:01:58 GMT
Ha ha ha. I would have thought they get paid something like 5000-10,000 a night (just my guess). At any rate, hiring JOJ seems to be indeed possible. A few years ago, I read on his website or somewhere that he was performing at a corporate function.
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Post by Being Alive on Nov 6, 2019 12:04:59 GMT
I think you're way off miz - the lower figure is not far off what Ball and Boe are being paid a week for the concert so with the best will in the world, JOJ isnt get that for a concert!
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Post by miz on Nov 6, 2019 12:10:35 GMT
Off topic and probably one for the unpopular opinions thread, but I have never got the love for Ramin Karimloo at all. *runs and hides* I share this opinion. I think Ramin does not sing, but howl. Hysterically. Constantly. Never is a note relaxed. The thing that irritates me the most of that, is that nearly all of his notes are so tense/hysterical that they are above the actual note it should be. he's always sharp. For example, the words: "secretly, secretly" in Phantom should be sung in a very seductive, silky, way, and it should be the same note. Ramin starts the first "se" already a note too high, elevating the "cret" to a whole different note, and the "ly" is 3 notes higher. This man is completely creating his own melodies. When I watched Les Mis with him as Valjean I was completely stunned that in Valjean's Soliloquy, NOT 1 note was on key. Not 1. I couldn't handle it. Also, in the 25th Les Mis concert, his Enjolras makes me laugh, it's a complete parody. As I said, I love Ramin as a musical theatre performer (but I am not keen on his indie-folk band), but what Dave25 says makes sense to me. A technical analysis of a performer is very interesting although I myself can't even read music let alone having perfect pitch. I don't think comments like these are snobbery at all. They are educational as far as I am concerned.
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