|
Post by mattnyc on Feb 17, 2022 23:44:41 GMT
I am one of the biggest Alanis fans who has ever lived. The music is obviously brilliant. This show though, is hot garbage.
|
|
|
Post by h86 on Feb 18, 2022 7:27:01 GMT
I love the music, JLP was a game changer for me when it came out mid 90s, one of the best albums of all time.
But there have been terrible stories about the Broadway production, the erasure of one of the main characters as gender non conforming from original workshops to Broadway and an initial denial that this ever happened.
|
|
669 posts
|
Post by westendcub on Feb 18, 2022 7:53:23 GMT
Loved this show on Broadway and is a go to cast recording for me (even got on vinyl!).
Stand-out moments of the show are: Smiling (one of the most creative & memorable sequences (stage choreography) & ‘You Outta Know’ is a powerhouse (jump to your feet to applaud)!
I can’t wait for this to be part of the West-End!!
|
|
5,319 posts
|
Post by mrbarnaby on Feb 18, 2022 8:17:00 GMT
This is the worst show I’ve ever seen. Absolute rot.
|
|
1,894 posts
|
Post by distantcousin on Feb 18, 2022 8:22:37 GMT
I am one of the biggest Alanis fans who has ever lived. The music is obviously brilliant. This show though, is hot garbage. Same, and this is what I suspected about the show. If it really is "woke - the musical", I can't think of anything less I'd like to pay money to see. And I wonder how much it will appeal to her fanbase - most Alanis fans are total Gen X'ers, and she was one of the voices of that generation. This show sounds like it's aimed more at the offspring of that generation.
|
|
4,973 posts
|
Post by TallPaul on Feb 18, 2022 9:18:14 GMT
Please try and remember that Adam Kenwright is now a TB member. If we're all a bit more positive, maybe he'll give us an exclusive?
|
|
507 posts
|
Post by jampot on Feb 18, 2022 10:08:12 GMT
Please try and remember that Adam Kenwright is now a TB member. If we're all a bit more positive, maybe he'll give us an exclusive? Personally..I cant wait to see it.
|
|
|
Post by danb on Feb 18, 2022 10:09:44 GMT
I remember seeing her at Shepherds Bush Empire just as JLP came out and she was phenomenal & ferocious but follow ups have been less engaging. It seems that people spend their formative years getting screwed over enough to write one fantastic album about it, then the rest of their lives only provide them with enough trauma to write 2 decent songs per album going forward. (Tori Amos…I look to you 😬).
|
|
4,603 posts
|
Post by Mark on Feb 18, 2022 10:47:52 GMT
I really enjoyed this in New York, and think it will do pretty well here.
|
|
2,583 posts
|
Post by viserys on Feb 18, 2022 12:06:00 GMT
most Alanis fans are total Gen X'ers, and she was one of the voices of that generation Not really... Generation X (I count myself among it) was more the 80s. We didn't have all that navel-gazing and woe-is-me stuff yet, for us it was more about sassy liberated fun - when it comes to female artists of the era, I'd say Madonna was the defining voice, plus Cyndi Lauper, Bananarama, Kim Wilde and here in Germany Nena. Basically everyone with mad hair Jagged Little Pill came out 1995, when us X'ers were in their 20s already. At that age I appreciated the somewhat smarter rock music, especially as it was such a contrast to the then popular bubblegum pop of the Spice Girls and Britney, but I wouldn't call Alanis a voice of our generation. What is true, though, is the sentiment that those who were young in those days (including us) really don't care much for such an overblown pile of woke issues. As I said in an earlier statement, give me a show with ONE subject coherently and seriously presented and I'm here for it, but not for a box-ticking exercise.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2022 13:25:08 GMT
most Alanis fans are total Gen X'ers, and she was one of the voices of that generation Not really... Generation X (I count myself among it) was more the 80s. We didn't have all that navel-gazing and woe-is-me stuff yet, for us it was more about sassy liberated fun - when it comes to female artists of the era, I'd say Madonna was the defining voice, plus Cyndi Lauper, Bananarama, Kim Wilde and here in Germany Nena. Basically everyone with mad hair Jagged Little Pill came out 1995, when us X'ers were in their 20s already. At that age I appreciated the somewhat smarter rock music, especially as it was such a contrast to the then popular bubblegum pop of the Spice Girls and Britney, but I wouldn't call Alanis a voice of our generation. What is true, though, is the sentiment that those who were young in those days (including us) really don't care much for such an overblown pile of woke issues. As I said in an earlier statement, give me a show with ONE subject coherently and seriously presented and I'm here for it, but not for a box-ticking exercise. JLP and Alanis were definitely a voice of Generation X, (i cannot say that without hearing the Spice Girls sing it) but i think it depends on where in that generation you are. The anger and frustrations in JLP were kind of shocking when it was released, and not really something done so openly in music before, especially by a female and that's why it did so well. The 1995 release captured young adults who had already experienced break ups, hurt, anger and frustrations, and this was the album that allowed them to vent it. I loved it.
I'm not sure what 'smarter rock music' refers too, but given that Germany gave us Nena (somebody pop those damn balloons already!) and embraced The Hoff, like no other country in the world did, i wonder how smart it really is
|
|
|
Post by mattnyc on Feb 18, 2022 15:32:55 GMT
I remember seeing her at Shepherds Bush Empire just as JLP came out and she was phenomenal & ferocious but follow ups have been less engaging. It seems that people spend their formative years getting screwed over enough to write one fantastic album about it, then the rest of their lives only provide them with enough trauma to write 2 decent songs per album going forward. (Tori Amos…I look to you 😬). I can’t disagree strongly enough. Her second album, “Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie” will always be my favorite album. As much as I appreciate and will always love her first album (and I listen to Alanis a LOT), it’s not one I regularly go back to. But I find “Flavors of Entanglement”, “Feast On Scraps”, “Under Rug Swept” to be better, as well.
|
|
|
Post by danb on Feb 18, 2022 16:00:31 GMT
I bought the next two, but like I said only a couple off of each hit home. But we all like different things, and I guess that the zeitgeist wasn’t behind the follow ups as much. (But ‘Feast on Scraps’ is one of them 😬).
|
|
2,583 posts
|
Post by viserys on Feb 18, 2022 16:17:28 GMT
I'm not sure what 'smarter rock music' refers too, but given that Germany gave us Nena (somebody pop those damn balloons already!) and embraced The Hoff, like no other country in the world did, i wonder how smart it really is LOL, no, bit of a misunderstanding there! As a (young) teen in the first half of the 80s, I loved the silly pop of that period, such as early Madonna. So you may be right that I'm at the older end of Gen X When the 90s came (and Alanis), I was older, more mature and THEN appreciated her kind of smarter rock, while I didn't like the silly pop of that period such as the Spice Girls and Britney. That said... in referencing Nena's 99 Red Balloons you are doing her a disservice, it was an anti-war song from a period where Germany was basically at the front of the cold war with US missiles stationed in West Germany and Soviet missiles in East Germany and the song was about that and how quickly a war could escalate. Though I agree that most of the rest of her songs were crap and these days she's only known as an idiotic antivaxxer anyway.
|
|
5,319 posts
|
Post by mrbarnaby on Feb 18, 2022 17:38:49 GMT
Please try and remember that Adam Kenwright is now a TB member. If we're all a bit more positive, maybe he'll give us an exclusive? Who cares! The show is terrible.
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Feb 18, 2022 18:22:58 GMT
Please try and remember that Adam Kenwright is now a TB member. If we're all a bit more positive, maybe he'll give us an exclusive? Who cares! The show is terrible. Is this one you've actually seen, or one of those you write off as terrible but haven't actually seen yourself? Because that seems to happen frequently.
|
|
|
Post by mattnyc on Feb 18, 2022 18:34:21 GMT
I’ve seen it quite a few times. I originally saw it in Boston at it’s pre-Broadway tryout because I’m such a huge Alanis fan, and left the theater just…angry. It was, and continued to be a show with every single social issue you could think of, sometimes just thrown in there at the expense of what might have been a decent book. And they knew this well before going to Broadway yet made practically zero changes. So when it arrived and people said “Oh wow there’s way too much happening here”, they had only themselves to blame for not fixing a problem they were told had been there since day one.
I will touch on the trans issue that SO MUCH has been made of. This is one thing I’ve personally found to not make a lot of sense. The character originally had maybe one line about not wanting to be called Joanne and call them Jo. And I’m almost positive that’s about the extent of it, unless it had changed before or after I saw it in Boston. On Broadway, that line was gone. The “erasure” issue for the character is an issue that was never really there to begin with, as far as I know. The character was never explicitly a trans character and is still a queer character and can be taken any number of ways. For me (my opinion) this is an issue that people wanted to make an issue for the sole purpose of having something to be angry about. It’s the only thing I’ll really defend the show for.
|
|
|
Post by h86 on Feb 18, 2022 21:18:55 GMT
I’ve seen it quite a few times. I originally saw it in Boston at it’s pre-Broadway tryout because I’m such a huge Alanis fan, and left the theater just…angry. It was, and continued to be a show with every single social issue you could think of, sometimes just thrown in there at the expense of what might have been a decent book. And they knew this well before going to Broadway yet made practically zero changes. So when it arrived and people said “Oh wow there’s way too much happening here”, they had only themselves to blame for not fixing a problem they were told had been there since day one. I will touch on the trans issue that SO MUCH has been made of. This is one thing I’ve personally found to not make a lot of sense. The character originally had maybe one line about not wanting to be called Joanne and call them Jo. And I’m almost positive that’s about the extent of it, unless it had changed before or after I saw it in Boston. On Broadway, that line was gone. The “erasure” issue for the character is an issue that was never really there to begin with, as far as I know. The character was never explicitly a trans character and is still a queer character and can be taken any number of ways. For me (my opinion) this is an issue that people wanted to make an issue for the sole purpose of having something to be angry about. It’s the only thing I’ll really defend the show for. Have a look on YouTube for a video by Amy Lovatt who has done a couple of videos on the the erasure issue. Some pretty compelling evidence in there for me.
|
|
|
Post by mattnyc on Feb 18, 2022 21:27:47 GMT
Honestly, I don’t really need to watch any of those videos. The “erasure” issue in itself implies that there was malicious intent by the authors to directly exclude a trans character and that then leads to “it’s not the authors right to make changes to their work because it might upset some people”. If the character was written one way and then changed in previews then that’s not erasure, it’s rewrites. The book could have used a hell of a lot more of them, really. But I’m not into telling authors what they must include in their story.
|
|
|
Post by mattnyc on Feb 18, 2022 21:32:27 GMT
Also, “erasure” is what a lot of films and stories do to trans characters when telling the history of Stonewall. Not about fictional characters who changed during out of town tryouts of a musical.
|
|
|
Post by h86 on Feb 18, 2022 21:32:50 GMT
Honestly, I don’t really need to watch any of those videos. The “erasure” issue in itself implies that there was malicious intent by the authors to directly exclude a trans character and that then leads to “it’s not the authors right to make changes to their work because it might upset some people”. If the character was written one way and then changed in previews then that’s not erasure, it’s rewrites. The book could have used a hell of a lot more of them, really. But I’m not into telling authors what they must include in their story. Yes rewrites happen, but when they deny the original character was non binary - which they did - then that suggests erasure to me…..
|
|
|
Post by mattnyc on Feb 18, 2022 21:37:40 GMT
The original character came off to me as confused the first time I saw it. But again, it’s a horribly written book so it could have been written any number of ways and nobody ever knew for sure. People will see what they want to see in it. That’s true with any sort of art. Bad art, good art, any art.
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Feb 18, 2022 23:11:11 GMT
So if I write a piece with a character who happens to be whatever the minority du jour is, find that the character isn't working within the piece, and need to cut them, I could get cancelled?
It makes sense not to write those parts at the moment, then. Doesn't seem worth the hassle if I need to make cuts at some point during the process, and can expect a baying mob of people desperate to be offended by something - anything - on Twitter and Reddit.
Absolutely ridiculous, borderline insane thinking from some very narrow minded people.
|
|
5,319 posts
|
Post by mrbarnaby on Feb 18, 2022 23:17:21 GMT
Who cares! The show is terrible. Is this one you've actually seen, or one of those you write off as terrible but haven't actually seen yourself? Because that seems to happen frequently. I’ve seen every show I have an opinion on thanks. Hence the opinion. I saw this in NYC . Sadly.
|
|
|
Post by h86 on Feb 19, 2022 8:23:02 GMT
So if I write a piece with a character who happens to be whatever the minority du jour is, find that the character isn't working within the piece, and need to cut them, I could get cancelled? It makes sense not to write those parts at the moment, then. Doesn't seem worth the hassle if I need to make cuts at some point during the process, and can expect a baying mob of people desperate to be offended by something - anything - on Twitter and Reddit. Absolutely ridiculous, borderline insane thinking from some very narrow minded people. I’d argue that the narrow mindedness is the other way around. Imagine seeing yourself finally represented in a musical and then that gets completely erased by the time the show reaches Broadway with a denial that it ever existed. No-one is desperate to be offended, they want to be represented, like hundreds of musicals have for others in the past.
|
|
18,902 posts
|
Post by BurlyBeaR on Feb 19, 2022 8:23:51 GMT
Please try and remember that Adam Kenwright is now a TB member. If we're all a bit more positive, maybe he'll give us an exclusive? We have a number of producers who are members of the forum but we don’t tip-toe around their projects.
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Feb 19, 2022 9:14:53 GMT
So if I write a piece with a character who happens to be whatever the minority du jour is, find that the character isn't working within the piece, and need to cut them, I could get cancelled? It makes sense not to write those parts at the moment, then. Doesn't seem worth the hassle if I need to make cuts at some point during the process, and can expect a baying mob of people desperate to be offended by something - anything - on Twitter and Reddit. Absolutely ridiculous, borderline insane thinking from some very narrow minded people. I’d argue that the narrow mindedness is the other way around. Imagine seeing yourself finally represented in a musical and then that gets completely erased by the time the show reaches Broadway with a denial that it ever existed. No-one is desperate to be offended, they want to be represented, like hundreds of musicals have for others in the past. But the point I am making is that by this logic, then every single show which doesn't feature (in this case) a trans character is "part of the problem" and should be equally attacked. Every single one. Any modern musical which hasn't written such a part into the show should be equally targeted by the cancel crowd (rebranded as "erasure movement" recently I've noticed) for their lack of inclusiveness. By having a trans (or non-binary) character and removing them - however justified their reason was artistically - they have actually done more harm than forgoing them in the first place. Can you see where I'm coming from with this?
|
|
|
Post by danb on Feb 19, 2022 10:29:40 GMT
Just my two penneth work..is this outrage only reserved for gender politics and identity? Because there must be a plethora of cut characters and storylines out there that people could take offence to because it’s ‘their tribe’ getting cut therefore less representation.(if any one has a better phrase for ‘their tribe’ please feel free to edit. It’s not Dances With Wolves and I don’t have my Rogets with me).
|
|
|
Post by h86 on Feb 19, 2022 15:43:53 GMT
Changing characters, storylines etc through the development of a new show is always going to happen and yes where do you draw the line when changes happen….. my issue with this show is that they denied the characters origins when they changed them which hurt a lot of people who relate to that character. Flat out denied - Jo was never on a gender journey when she blatantly was.
The show accepted its mistake, apologised and changes are being made….
This isn’t cancel culture it’s holding producers, creatives etc to account and to create theatre that is accessible and representative to all.
And no not every show can do that….but when you start on a journey and change direction along the way don’t pretend you started from a different place.
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Feb 19, 2022 16:08:49 GMT
I just don't accept that any producer, writer or director would make changes which knowingly upset their potential audience. If this show found a niche with a particular market - as many do - they are most likely to double down on it.
Every change made in every production I've opened has been for the creative betterment of the piece as a whole. No director I've ever known has made a change without the overall vision of the piece of art they are creating in mind, even in the poorest jukebox musical. That is precisely what they are paid for.
Not everyone can please everyone 100% of the time, and not every change made to a show is a slight at someone or something. Everyone involved in every show wants to make the best show possible for everyone who sees it, with varying amounts of commercial need for profit/recouping investors money.
Recently there was an attempt to shame Six for choosing a theatre that doesn't have adequate disabled access. Nobody gave a toss when it wasn't a show they were personally invested in. But at that theatre was suddenly to receive a show which had a larger number of disabled fans than many, I know people involved with the theatre AND production who were actively abused on social media in the name of "equality".
There is nothing wrong with self-interest. When points are made which are for the "greater good", but actually are about inconvenience/bad feeling by a minority, they should be addressed appropriately like any other concern.
Cancel culture - excuse me, "intent to erase", is the absolute worst of social media - and brings out the worst of otherwise very fair and reasonable people.
Anyone can be a victim, at any time, if you say or do the wrong thing to what the most vocal group of the moment want you to do.
|
|