2,389 posts
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Post by peggs on Jun 17, 2018 13:38:10 GMT
The bells have got a contraption inside that pushes a rod sharply onto the inside of the bell, so they don't need to be 'rung' to be 'struck', if that makes sense. They look like they're doing nothing, but I spent long enough inspecting them to ascertain their dark mysterious truth. Shame to have missed you peggs! Interesting, I noticed there was a something inside them but you clearly paid much more attention. Failure to examine bells and audience for board members!
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76 posts
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Post by bingomatic on Jun 17, 2018 21:55:02 GMT
Knew a little about the, disappointing, short story but absolutely loved this production. Lia Williams was magnetic and although I'm hopeless at predicting award nominees I'm certain she'll get something at the end of the year.
Thanks for the warning about the two front row seats, I had a spare sweatshirt to ease the buttock burden.
The others were good too, but it was Lia's show.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 8:20:08 GMT
I read this interview recently (and WOW it was surprisingly difficult to find again), Elizabeth Webster's thoughts are particularly relevant to this discussion. She clearly can't speak for all actors, but worth a read: www.shortlist.com/entertainment/how-movies-cast-ugly-unattractive-fat-characters-mean-awkward-long-read-feature/358578 No matter what you look like, you need to be pretty thick-skinned to make it as an actor, so I feel like people who are in it for the long haul are always going to be pragmatic about their appearance and typing. Wishing for more, but nonetheless taking advantage of the fact that they have their casting niche and embracing it. I mean, it would be great if writers could do better, and directors could be a little more visionary, and critics could bear in mind that an actor is either miscast or well cast but either way their physical form is rarely fair game for casual commentary. (I feel the likes of us get a little more leeway to discuss physical appearance, because firstly we're not critics so no one should be taking us seriously, and secondly we really do mostly do it in a complimentary way; members have before and doubtless will again come down hard on another member who is just plain mean about an actor's physical appearance. So, restraining orders aside, the likes of Ryan are on reasonably safe ground here!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 8:50:29 GMT
So, restraining orders aside, the likes of Ryan are on reasonably safe ground here!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 22:02:56 GMT
They should remove the urinals from the men's It wouldn't be possible at the Donmar, as you could not possibly fit even a single cubicle into the space for the urinals in the upstairs men's, and you would JUST perhaps get one in the downstairs ones. That in fact goes for practically every "gents" in the entire West End. Most of the time they are narrow corridors with a single stall at one end, and just inches between urinals on one side and basins on the other. I hated the audience laughing at the "publican's fat daughter jokes." I didn't find them funny. I think performers of that size might take those roles because they don't get offered much. Those lines were there to enhance dramatic truth, a valid artistic judgement, I'd have said (not seen this version yet, but have seen others). Audience reaction says more about the audience than the writer, I think. Really interesting point about performers taking that kind of work just because they need it. Does that mean theatre is no more than a freak show? A serious question, not in any way trying to be offensive to @cleoskryker, I really want to know and build on the question raised here. I don’t think Theatre is a freak show but it is short sighted. There must be “big boned” or conventionally less attractive actors out there who are very talented. It is women who suffer most from looksism. Can anyone think of a female equivalent of Simon Russell Beale? I guess they are weeded out at drama school auditions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 8:18:32 GMT
This is the problem with writing female characters as wives and girlfriends and mothers for all these years. We end up with an industry where the overweight woman gets sidelined as the funny best friend and never cast as Juliet, even though fat women fall in love - and have people fall in love with them - all the goddamned time in real life. Building a great acting career is a challenge for everyone, but directors who think "sure, Hamlet can be chubby, why not?" never seem to extend the same courtesy to Rosalind. We end up with a pervasive, insidious, toxic message that only thin women can be desirable, and that only thin women deserve a great career. And feel free to pop up with a fat woman who has a brilliant career in an attempt to prove me wrong, I'll show you hundreds of thin women that prove the imbalance is very real.
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on Jun 19, 2018 8:50:35 GMT
Melissa McCarthy springs to mind as a large woman who's a movie star but, again, she's a comic actor - which holds true for male actors as well. For some reason fat = funny. Even Shakespeare played by that rule.
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39 posts
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Post by cropley on Jun 19, 2018 17:40:32 GMT
Kathy Bates?
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5,597 posts
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Post by lynette on Jun 19, 2018 18:24:37 GMT
This is a very interesting thread. If you were going to cast a chubby ( ler's not be too coy) actress to play Juliet who is aged 14 in the text and usually played by an actress who can pass for young teen, then you would be doing it either because you wanted to make a point about the character or because the actress was bloody brilliant. Similarly most of the other young girls in Shakespeare and yes he did play the fat funny thing to the extreme - Comedy of Errors description of the cook.. But if we are saying that a woman has to starve herself to get a part then that is not right and what the modelling girls have been battling for years. They have to be stick then to wear the clothes designed for stick thin women. I went to a fashion show at one of the big schools of fashion recently and honestly a women's body wasn’t necessary for any of the clothes on the catwalk. An ironing board or a young man would have been fine.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 23:27:56 GMT
Pauline Quirke's size was often made fun of in Bird's of A Feather by Dorian in retaliation for her comments about Dorian being a slapper.
But as Pauline and now Linda have lost a lot of weight this can no longer apply.
There are certainly less larger female actresses than male ones when you think about top careers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 7:48:01 GMT
And none of them are really known for their theatre work, which is interesting, 'cos I would've thought the world of theatre would be more flexible on body shapes than the world of film and/or TV. The search for a female Simon Russell Beale equivalent continues...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 8:40:47 GMT
The search for a female Simon Russell Beale equivalent continues...
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923 posts
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Post by Snciole on Jun 21, 2018 8:52:23 GMT
What smashing gams SRB has!
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Post by jaqs on Jun 21, 2018 16:24:19 GMT
Sharon D Clarke isn't small, has done plenty of TV and theatre, though musicals rather than plays. I'd hope that Sharon Rooney becomes the SRB equivalent in a few years time.
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29 posts
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Post by vegas on Jun 21, 2018 19:42:44 GMT
In the US: Jayne Houdyshell, Lois Smith, and Kathleen Turner.
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1,233 posts
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Post by Steve on Jun 21, 2018 21:57:40 GMT
For some reason fat = funny. Even Shakespeare played by that rule. I think the reason fat = funny is that it is one of the very few physical indicators that a person puts base indulgence over striving for perfection. Funny performances are nearly always about puncturing pretension, and base indulgence always punctures it. Melissa McCarthy's signature movie scene has her going to the bathroom in a sink. In the movie theatres, that got the biggest laugh because it is the least dignified thing a person could ever do, the shredding of all dignity for the basest reason possible: You gotta go when you gotta go. Her weight is a subconscious signal that she will stoop to base actions, and puncture the pretensions of everyone in her orbit. Ryan is our comedy all-star on Theatreboard for the same reasons. Everyone anticipates that he will puncture the pretensions of every other comment, and focus on the basest, most indulgent, most relatable preoccupations any human being has. A muscular man on stage isn't funny, because he is aspiring to achievement in the field of bodily perfection, but Ryan in the wings, licking his lips, inches away from being served his next injunction, IS funny. This is brave comedy, because pretensions sometimes don't like to be punctured. If a fat person is revealed to be fat because of a disease or ailment, then they cease being funny. The audience knows that what they are seeing is not comic indulgence, but sad fate. So a fat comedian often must hide such a fact from the audience, to keep them laughing.
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587 posts
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Post by Polly1 on Jun 21, 2018 22:40:45 GMT
Back to the play, and sorry lynette but from your front row seat (own cushion provided) I thought this was ace. Engrossing even though I knew the story and brilliantly acted from the whole cast. Some very funny lines too. I think Angus Wright is meant to drop the ring, it ended up in his trouser turn-up this afternoon. I loved the adaptation and tried to buy a script but they don't seem to be available yet.
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on Jun 22, 2018 6:13:58 GMT
Polly, I'm afraid I had rather the opposite reaction. I thought David Harrower's new adaptation was efficient and slick in its storytelling but lacked, well, drama. It all felt rather flat and undercooked to me with many big moments not given their due. I didn't think the framing device worked particularly well and probably undercut (via foreshadowing) many of those big plot moments. And crucial information got lost. I didn't get one of the great underlying motives for Miss Brodie's reluctance to marry until I read the programme notes after the performance.
Of course, when all is said and done, the play is about one person and Lia Williams's Jean Brodie is quite magnificent. She seemed somehow crazier than I remember the character when played by Maggie Smith, but with a casual every day craziness that passes perfectly for eccentricity. And of course she has charisma to burn. It's never in doubt as to why her students adore her and the men in her life can't get enough of her.
Everyone in the cast is good - Angus Wright, in particular, is pitch perfect - but, for me, this version of the play just doesn't give them enough chances to show it.
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1,192 posts
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Post by theatrelover123 on Jun 22, 2018 7:22:26 GMT
Polly, I'm afraid I had rather the opposite reaction. I thought David Harrower's new adaptation was efficient and slick in its storytelling but lacked, well, drama. It all felt rather flat and undercooked to me with many big moments not given their due. I didn't think the framing device worked particularly well and probably undercut (via foreshadowing) many of those big plot moments. And crucial information got lost. I didn't get one of the great underlying motives for Miss Brodie's reluctance to marry until I read the programme notes after the performance.
Of course, when all is said and done, the play is about one person and Lia Williams's Jean Brodie is quite magnificent. She seemed somehow crazier than I remember the character when played by Maggie Smith, but with a casual every day craziness that passes perfectly for eccentricity. And of course she has charisma to burn. It's never in doubt as to why her students adore her and the men in her life can't get enough of her.
Everyone in the cast is good - Angus Wright, in particular, is pitch perfect - but, for me, this version of the play just doesn't give them enough chances to show it. Ooh can you share the underlying motives mentioned in the programme as I didn’t get to buy one (spoiler free, of course)
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539 posts
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Post by jek on Jun 22, 2018 7:40:26 GMT
Don't think it is a spoiler to mention - as is related in the programme - that we are talking about a time when the marriage bar was still very much a thing. Women in teaching, the civil service and much else were not allowed to continue working after marriage. Strange to realise how recently this was the case.
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1,192 posts
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Post by theatrelover123 on Jun 22, 2018 7:55:25 GMT
What sort of drinks do they serve at this marriage bar?
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on Jun 22, 2018 8:02:33 GMT
Don't think it is a spoiler to mention - as is related in the programme - that we are talking about a time when the marriage bar was still very much a thing. Women in teaching, the civil service and much else were not allowed to continue working after marriage. Strange to realise how recently this was the case.
Indeed, this is what I was referring to. It's almost the most important fact of the play - it explains so much. Perhaps it's in the play and I missed it but if so my wife missed it as well and she's a lot smarter and more attentive than I am.
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539 posts
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Post by jek on Jun 22, 2018 8:46:29 GMT
What sort of drinks do they serve at this marriage bar? A cocktail of resentment, anger and poverty!
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587 posts
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Post by Polly1 on Jun 22, 2018 9:34:50 GMT
Don't think it is a spoiler to mention - as is related in the programme - that we are talking about a time when the marriage bar was still very much a thing. Women in teaching, the civil service and much else were not allowed to continue working after marriage. Strange to realise how recently this was the case.
Indeed, this is what I was referring to. It's almost the most important fact of the play - it explains so much. Perhaps it's in the play and I missed it but if so my wife missed it as well and she's a lot smarter and more attentive than I am.
As far as I remember, the girls mention it explicitly and Brodie herself implies it, but maybe I just picked up on it as I knew about it. Interesting to hear whether complete newbies to the story understood the implications. I thought the foreshadowing made some aspects much more poignant (as in, e.g. Dancing at Lughnasa). The chief thing I liked about the script was the humour (although I imagine most of the best lines were Spark's own).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 13:30:00 GMT
On the interesting topics of people's sizes - there have probably been more "larger" ladies performing in musicals than plays. A couple of the mature leads in The Band and the one part in Mamma Mia calls for ladies of a certain size.
But the critic commenting on a young performers' weight in Miss Jean Brodie and having mentioned it when the lady in question was in an earlier was certainly uncalled for as there is no reference to the character's size in the play and the lady was cast as the best person for the role.
There will always be larger character performers of both genders and they will be cast for some roles because of this but they will also be cast in general roles. The RSC had Ben Goffe who is a well known dwarf actor in the company last year or the year before playing a none size specific role. Ben will be doing the Palladium panto this year where he has been cast for his height for example.
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3,482 posts
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Post by showgirl on Jun 23, 2018 22:11:12 GMT
I enjoyed the matinee today, probably helped by never having seen a previous version or read the book. The running time seems to have come down as it was only about 2 hours 25 today - though the incredibly slow audience then took about another 5 minutes just to get to its collective feet, never mind the slow, painful process of filing out of the auditorium and down the stairs. Come on people, some of us have other performances to get to or trains to catch - or we might simply want to reach the loos before the queue snakes half-way round the building!
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on Jun 24, 2018 8:31:37 GMT
I watched the movie of The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie again last night and much preferred it to the current Donmar production. There's not much to choose between the wonderful leading ladies, although Maggie smith seemed much more self-assured than the vulnerable and slightly fragile Lia Williams and thus had farther to fall in the end.
But Jay Presson Allen's screen adaptation of her play was so much stronger than David Harrower's drab Donmar version. It's the difference between a writer with genuine dramatic instincts and a writer with a journeyman's mentality of simply telling the story in an efficient way. I gather Harrower's version is closer to Muriel Spark's original novel, but so what? Fidelity to the original is never to be preferred to a creative adaptation which identifies and highlights the key moments of the piece to capture its essential spirit.
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Post by oldhasbeen on Jun 24, 2018 16:47:10 GMT
I read the book and saw the film years ago, I thought this stage adaption worked really well, catching the spirit & feel of the novel. I much preferred Lia Williams to Maggie Smith in this role, small hints of vulnerability went a long way. Terrific performance by Angus Wright too. The way the girls "aged" - more by their attitude to Miss JB than to actually looking older - was very well done.
The only thing I would have changed is how Miss JB discovers who her betrayer was, which seemed very perfunctory,
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3,482 posts
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Post by showgirl on Jun 25, 2018 3:38:46 GMT
Coincidental but having seen this and previously Lia Williams as Mary, Queen of Scots in Mary Stuart, the two roles seemed to me to have similarities in both being about women who were initially confident and pushing barriers, only to end up at bay, cornered and broken, though still showing small signs of their old spirit. Not a criticism, but I'd like to see Lia Williams doing something completely different which doesn't remind me of these roles.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 13:36:04 GMT
Don't think it is a spoiler to mention - as is related in the programme - that we are talking about a time when the marriage bar was still very much a thing. Women in teaching, the civil service and much else were not allowed to continue working after marriage. Strange to realise how recently this was the case. Thanks, Jek. This fact really informed my engagement with the play and made the tragedy of Brodie’s predicament more resonant. Pity the playwright didn’t make anything of this as it would have added substance to the text.
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