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Post by tmesis on Sept 23, 2017 15:45:30 GMT
Yes I'd forgotten about 'Flicka.' She was always one of my favourite singers and I saw her at ROH the very few times she came. She is very good in Showboat and In the DG version of On the Town. This whole opera singers doing musicals can often be extremely embarrassing, I don't think Te Kanawa ever quite got it, but I do like Bryn singing R&H (and also L&L.)
One of my all time favourites for all the wrong reasons as it is so terrible, is Sutherland singing Coward. The final song on the CD, a duet with The Master, is a camp classic.
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 23, 2017 16:03:34 GMT
Yes I'd forgotten about 'Flicka.' She was always one of my favourite singers and I saw her at ROH the very few times she came. She is very good in Showboat and In the DG version of On the Town. This whole opera singers doing musicals can often be extremely embarrassing, I don't think Te Kanawa ever quite got it, but I do like Bryn singing R&H (and also L&L.) One of my all time favourites for all the wrong reasons as it is so terrible, is Sutherland singing Coward. The final song on the CD, a duet with The Master, is a camp classic. Did you attend the concert(s)/recording of that DGG 'On the Town' at the Barbican? That was truly memorable. I used to have a special collection of LPs of opera singers making fools of themselves singing popular music. I seem to remember Renata Scotto made a whole ghastly LP and of course Birgit Nilsson singing 'I could have danced all night' in a 'Die Fledermaus' Gala was another clanger! But Eileen Farrell was an accomplished singer of American pop ballads and blues numbers. Kiri had some expert training for her various recordings of American popular songs but it never sounded really natural and even Lennie failed to get her sounding right as Maria in 'West Side Story'. In fact, when she made the Gershwin album with John McGlinn she did not take kindly to him telling her how to phrase the music! But I digress – as usual!
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Post by tmesis on Sept 23, 2017 16:20:47 GMT
Kiri was much better in the South Pacific she did with Carreras. I think it was CBS cashing in on the success of DG's WSS who produced it. I thought this much more enjoyable than WSS, not least because it also had Mandy Patinkin and Sarah Vaughan both showing the two 'stars' how it should be done.
Oh and I wasn't at the Barbican for On the Town but, my God, I wish. I had been!
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 24, 2017 13:02:32 GMT
Kiri was much better in the South Pacific she did with Carreras. I think it was CBS cashing in on the success of DG's WSS who produced it. I thought this much more enjoyable than WSS, not least because it also had Mandy Patinkin and Sarah Vaughan both showing the two 'stars' how it should be done. Oh and I wasn't at the Barbican for On the Town but, my God, I wish. I had been! Of course, that 'On the Town' recording was the exception that proves the rule in that the opera singers (Frederica von Stade, Thomas Hampson, Samuel Ramey, Evelyn Lear and Marie McLaughlin) more than held their own against the experienced non-operatic performers (David Garrison, Tyne Daly and Cleo Laine) and compared with the 'authentic' studio recording that Bernstein made with some members of the original cast some years later, it finally does full justice to the show.
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Post by tmesis on Sept 24, 2017 16:20:41 GMT
Rodgers and Hammerstein
It's very interesting that there's no falling off of Rodger's melodic gift when he composes to a pre-existing lyric; in fact, you could argue that his melodies are even more impressive with Hammerstein than with Hart. His tunes are definitely more expansive for Hammerstein, more operatic even. His harmonies, whilst still very sophisticated are simpler than with Hart. His ability to write a cracking Waltz, always there with Hart, now comes to the forefront.
It's probably best to discuss songs allied to the actual musicals so...
Oklahoma!
Not much to add to what's already been discussed re Proms performance. People will say we're in Love is probably the stand out song for me. I love how the middle section is the same tune as the opening but inverted. The best version of Surrey is Gordon McCrae but Bryn is superb in this in his R&H cd (it's really excellent all round.)
I loved the NT production.
Carousel
Probably the richest R&H score (although South Pacific is very close.) Where to start, it's absolutely packed with gems! The Carousel Waltz, with it's slightly dissonant harmonies so perfectly evokes, and sets off the fairground vibe but then the quality remains with song, after song. When I marry Mr Snow If I loved You (probably my favourite Rodgers ballad, until I think of another one!) June is bustin' (what a superb rollicking tune with great drive.) When the children are asleep Soliloquy (others have commented more eloquently, but I'm just in awe as to how much musical richness the is in just 7 mins. - more than in a whole musical by ALW.) What's the use of Wonderin' You'll never walk alone (His first hymn-like tune, that he then did once in all his subsequent hit shows.)
Again I loved the NT version but about two years ago there was a superb fringe production at the Arcola. I didn't go to the Coliseum because of my aversion to Jenkins. Surely this should be the next one to get the Wilson treatment at the Proms. You could do the Starkeeper scenes brilliantly at RAH by using the higher levels (the choir area, or, better stil, the gallery.)
I'll pause there, but will return with South Pacific et al...
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 24, 2017 18:23:55 GMT
Yes, that's all totally correct and there's little I can add to any of it, except to say that my favourite songs in Carousel are all of them, even 'You'll never walk alone' with its religiosity. But who can resist its operatic power, especially when sung by somebody with a proper voice. The first time I saw the NT production I was in tears by the time we got to 'What's the use of wonderin'' but when I saw it the second time the tears started at 'If I loved you'. I do however feel rather strongly that R & H should have stuck with Molnar's original ending to Liliom and, as I have discussed with the theatremonkey, I think the ending of the recent production at the Coliseum did rather indicate that Billy had not done enough to warrant his salvation although it was rather ambiguous.
The only additional thought I can add at this stage and one that has been well documented is that after Hammerstein's run of major hit shows in the 1920s going right back to 'Rose Marie', 'The Desert Song', 'New Moon' and many others including of course 'Show Boat', he had had a lean time in the 1930s when he was working mainly in Hollywood and it is on record how much he was grateful to Rodgers for rescuing his career with 'Oklahoma' in 1943. It was certainly a marriage of true minds and I suspect that the fact that both men had a wealth of experience writing Broadway shows by the time they started working together, contributed to the ease with which they both seem to have adapted to working with each other. They do seem to have brought out the best in each other, especially allowing Rodgers to expand his style more broadly than with Hart.
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 24, 2017 18:30:32 GMT
The best version of Surrey is Gordon McCrae I should just add that the three film soundtracks of 'Oklahoma', 'Carousel' and 'The King and I' released on the Capitol label were amongst EMI's all time best selling LPs until the era of Rock and Roll and the Beatles, and they still continued on into the CD era as among the most successful albums in the film and show catalogue. The fact that all three were stereo did of course help their longevity.
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Post by Mr Snow on Sept 24, 2017 20:06:02 GMT
The best version of Surrey is Gordon McCrae I should just add that the three film soundtracks of 'Oklahoma', 'Carousel' and 'The King and I' released on the Capitol label were amongst EMI's all time best selling LPs until the era of Rock and Roll and the Beatles, and they still continued on into the CD era as among the most successful albums in the film and show catalogue. The fact that all three were stereo did of course help their longevity. I think I'm right in saying that show soundtracks were always priced at a serious premium. I can remember looking at them and my pocket money wouldn't go that far. And this was the early 70's. Keep going guys. Delighted you singled out There's a small hotel, but Pal Joey also featured the underrated I could write a book, amongst the many wonderful songs they wrote. On your Toes was revved a year later but it didn't have the same effect on me. Re the Rogers and Hammerstein partnership. I'm not sure they had that much in common except wives called Dorothy and years spent working in the theatre. Two professionals at the top of their game. Once they'd had unprecedented success with Oklahoma why not push on. I saw the NT, Arcola and ENO productions of Carousel and took a lot from each. It seems like a bulletproof show! But I'm still not sure about Billy... Finally The Sound of Music. there was great recent production at Regents Park and it made me reconsider. As I was growing up the contrast between its huge success via the saccharine film helped a young man turn against musical comedy and embrace the much grittier Rock and Roll. Musicals did seem like old hat and not for my generation. But I think that they set the bar so high it was near on impossible to follow and it was hollywood who made it sentimental material and lost the youth audience.
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Post by tmesis on Sept 24, 2017 20:35:35 GMT
South Pacific
Again this is so good (as Tony says) my favourites are all of them.
Twin Soliloquies - I think this absolutely exquisite, really touching, almost Puccini-esque.
Some enchanted evening - I love playing this on the piano, you can really give it wellie. Probably Rodgers's grandest melody.
Bloody Mary/There is nothing like a Dame - Rodgers was fantastic at these rousing chorus numbers.
I'm in love with a wonderful Guy - probably my favourite amongst his waltzes. This is an example of Rodgers having such a profusion of musical ideas he can almost afford to waste them. The verse alone has two cracking tunes; the first one, minor key 'I expect every one' and then the most expansive 'Fearlessly I'll face them' in the major and that drives so deliciously into the chorus 'I'm as corny,' all enhanced by the superb R.R.Bennett arrangement. I really admire this song!
Younger than Springtime - probably his simplest ballad musically but exquisite.
This nearly was mine - what a fabulously noble tune and in E flat too! This is a joy to play with a great middle section.
I've just listened again to the Kiri/Jose/Tunick version and it's way better than I remembered. Kiri is really excellent and so much more relaxed than on WSS. She had been working with Riddle in between and it shows. Jose is better too but his part was written for an opera singer, albeit a baritone. Sarah and Mandy are just sensational and the great LSO are conducted with real verve by Tunick.
Again loved the NT production (Philip Quast magnificent) more than the NY production that came to the Barbican.
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Post by tmesis on Sept 24, 2017 20:47:08 GMT
Finally The Sound of Music. there was great recent production at Regents Park and it made me reconsider. Glad you've come back to it. I've always liked it but it does have some irksome moments! Will waffle on about it later.
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 24, 2017 23:39:06 GMT
I think I'm right in saying that show soundtracks were always priced at a serious premium. I can remember looking at them and my pocket money wouldn't go that far. And this was the early 70's. I don't think there was that much of a premium on soundtracks, except that for Capitol they would have been on Capitol's most expensive popular label (probably SLCT) rather than the normal pop label ST, or whatever it was. But yes, there was certainly a premium. BTW, I see in the 1980 EMI UK catalogue that the surviving SLCT albums were the three mentioned above plus 'High Society' and Sinatra's 'Songs for Swinging Lovers' and looking further back, some of Nat King Cole's LPs were on SLCT as were some of Sinatra's so it couldn't have been that much of a premium price. I apologise on behalf of Capitol if that stopped you buying them, Mr Snow, but multitudes of other people did!
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 24, 2017 23:49:44 GMT
But I'm still not sure about Billy... Well, in Molnar's original play, Billy is a bad boy in his treatment of Julie and his crazy idea of doing a robbery to find money to pay for his expectant child. He fails in his attempt to perform one good deed when he is allowed to return to earth after his time in purgatory so he fails to redeem himself and therefore presumably then goes to hell. But he did genuinely love Julie and she loved him and Wiki says the end of Molnar's play concentrates on Julie rather than be explicit about Billy's ultimate fate. In fact, this is fairly much what we saw at the Coliseum and those of us who wanted Billy to fail to get to heaven (because that's what Molnar wrote) could see that in how Alfie Boe played the final scene.
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 24, 2017 23:55:05 GMT
Keep going guys. Delighted you singled out There's a small hotel, but Pal Joey also featured the underrated I could write a book, amongst the many wonderful songs they wrote. On your Toes was revved a year later but it didn't have the same effect on me. I think my pal Toni Palmer was in the West End production of 'Pal Joey' in 1954 and she was certainly very familiar with 'That terrific rainbow', including the verse, and we used to belt it out in the bar at Stratford East.
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 25, 2017 0:25:31 GMT
Regarding South Pacific, I think the CBS recordings of the original Broadway cast are amongst the most treasurable of all those original cast records from that era. Nobody has ever sung Emile's songs like Pinza, Mary Martin is wonderful and 'There is nothing like a dame' is bursting with macho energy. But did you know that CBS recorded only part of the score and it was left to EMI to record 'Twin Soliloquies' and the Finale when Mary Martin and Wilbur Evans were playing South Pacific at Drury Lane? My other best ever original cast recordings from that time are those from 'Kiss Me, Kate', where EMI also recorded some titles from the original London production but the Broadway ones are better!
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 25, 2017 10:21:49 GMT
I think my pal Toni Palmer was in the West End production of 'Pal Joey' in 1954 and she was certainly very familiar with 'That terrific rainbow', including the verse, and we used to belt it out in the bar at Stratford East. As at Monday 25 September until further notice, my avatar is Toni Palmer and Kent Baker entertaining in the bar at Theatre Royal, Stratford East. We performed before the show, during the interval and afterwards as well. At the end of the interval, when the bell sounded for the start of the second act, I would launch into: 'The bells are ringing, for me and my girl' and when we had finished, Kent would tell the punters: "That's enough of entertainment – now go back to the show!"
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Post by tmesis on Sept 25, 2017 15:10:54 GMT
The King and I
I have great affection for this show. It was my first paid gig. In the late 60s at age 14, I played clarinet in the pit for a local amateur production in Derbyshire.
Favourites:
Hello Young Lovers - another great waltz with a feeling of calm because of the double pedal
We kiss in a shadow - a lovely song. The flute arabesque in the arrangement is a nice touch.
I have Dreamed - a really sumptuous ballad. Interesting structure, love how he re-states the tune a third higher early on. Gives the song a great lift
Something Wonderful - the pseudo-religious number that is now obligatory in his musicals.
I love the recorded version with Julie Andrews. It's such a shame she never played the part of Anna live as it's made for her.
Embarrassing Admission: I've never seen a professional production of this musical!
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 25, 2017 15:35:38 GMT
Another Loco digression: I was going to post this on the Strictly Come Dancing thread but that has digressed so far from Strictly (quite amusingly) that I will post it here.
I just finished watching Strictly on the iPlayer and I could hardly believe what a ghastly mess musically they made of 'This nearly was mine'. When the engineers at Abbey Road would start working on remastering old tapes, the biggest nightmare was always finding that the tape machine used during the original recording sessions was not running at a constant speed. This resulted in strange fluctuations in pitch and tempo, and it sounded to me as if the soloist singing 'This nearly was mine' was going off on his own with tempo fluctuations that bore no relationship whatsoever to whatever it was that the orchestra was doing, which might well have been playing at uneven speeds of its own. It's not hard to stay in 3/4 time to play and sing a waltz, but Dave Arch and his vocalist sure couldn't manage that on Saturday night! End of digression.
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 25, 2017 15:42:25 GMT
We kiss in a shadow - a lovely song. Still for me the greatest show tune ever written. An entire show in a few lines. One day, I'd love to expand it into a full-length musical. Ah monkey, I see now what an old romantic you are. Good for you!
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 25, 2017 15:50:47 GMT
Embarrassing Admission: I've never seen a professional production of this musical! Well, I've only ever seen it once but it was at the Palladium and it did have Yul Brynner in it. Despite having played it countless times, he was still magnetic and I was very happy to have seen him live.
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Post by loureviews on Sept 25, 2017 17:22:11 GMT
Richard Rodgers was marvellous both with Larry Hart and Oscar Hammerstein II, by far my favourite composer from the GAS.
Only Pal Joey and Babes in Arms remain that well-known from that first collaboration, but what a collaboration that produced Manhattan, Mountain Greenery, My Funny Valentine, If You Asked Me I Could Write A Book, The Lady is a Tramp, My Heart Stood Still, Zip, My Romance, Ten Cents a Dance, You Are Too Beautiful (an Al Jolson keeper), and With a Song in My Heart.
Wow!
The second teaming gave us the big, big shows like Carousel, Oklahoma, The King and I, The Sound of Music, and South Pacific, and who could live without Soliloquy, If I Loved You, When I Marry Mr Snow, People Will Say We're In Love, The Farmer and the Cowman, Surrey With The Fringe on Top, Something Wonderful, Shall We Dance, Hello Young Lovers, Climb Every Mountain, Sixteen Going on Seventeen, The Lonely Goatherd, Bali Ha'i, Some Enchanted Evening, and Happy Talk!
Then they gave us Cinderella, superb for TV with Julie Andrews. Flower Drum Song (I Enjoy Being A Girl). And to add even more riches Hamnerstein wrote lyrics for Jerome Kern's Show Boat, Rudolf Friml's Rose Marie, and Sigmund Romberg's New Moon.
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Post by tmesis on Sept 25, 2017 19:54:04 GMT
The Sound of Music
Well a lot of people can't stand this one, finding it too saccharine and although it does not have the same quality of amazing songs as his other massive successes, I still really enjoy it and am moved by it. Frankly it would be nigh on impossible to give it the depth of the others, with all the music that is required for the children.
Favourites:
My favourite things - another rare use of (mainly) the minor key by Rodgers
Edelweiss - it takes real class to write a tune this simple but completely original and memorable. He obviously succeeded because some Austrians think it's a folk tune that they learnt as children!
Processional March - I love how Rodgers writes a stonking tune for the wedding that then combines deliciously with 'How do you solve a problem.'
Something Good - written for the film with words by Rodgers, a lovely ballad.
Climb Ev'ry Mountain - the pseudo-religious one. It's more clever than it seems, with virtually every phrase in the tune a rising phrase that literally depicts the climbing of a mountain. Interesting shifting key-scheme.
I really enjoyed the Curve production of this a few Christmases ago.
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Post by Dawnstar on Sept 25, 2017 20:16:23 GMT
Embarrassing Admission: I've never seen a professional production of this musical! Neither have I, and only one amateur production. Does it get done less often than R & H's other major shows or am I just biased because I haven't happened to see it? In the last 10 years I've seen 3 pro Sound of Music productions, 2 Carousels (skipped ENO's) & 1 each of South Pacific & Oklahoma but zero King and I. I really enjoyed the Curve production of this a few Christmases ago. Seconding that. It was well worth the trip to Leicester. I was especially impressed by Michael French as Captain von Trapp, who I think was the best of the 5 actors I've seen in the role over 3 productions.
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Post by tmesis on Sept 25, 2017 20:27:14 GMT
Dawnstar The Curve has done some terrific productions of musicals in the past few years - Oliver, Hairspray, a fantastic Chicago and Hello Dolly with Janie Dee.
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Post by Dawnstar on Sept 25, 2017 20:59:08 GMT
^Yes, I saw Hairspray & Hello Dolly, also Finding Neverland & The Light In The Piazza. Leicester's not too bad for me to get to, 1h40 each way, so I go up when there's something I want to see with a cast that appeals.
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Post by loureviews on Sept 26, 2017 6:34:23 GMT
I haven't seen The King and I live since 1991 (Susan Hampshire as Anna). There was a version at the RAH more recently but it seems to sidestep regular revivals.
Oklahoma - once, National (Hugh Jackman) Carousel - twice, NT (Joanna Riding), last year with La Jenkins Sound of Music - WE (Connie Fisher), most memorable because my now-husband proposed in the interval South Pacific - NT (Philip Quast and Lauren Kennedy), Barbican (Samantha Womack)
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 26, 2017 15:24:52 GMT
Nice to hear from Dawnstar and loureviews. Despite its wonderful score, I find South Pacific hard to take. I had seen it onstage only once before, which was the original Australian production back in the very early 1950s and I remember nothing about it although I can still see every scene in Annie Get Your Gun and Kiss Me, Kate from a few years earlier. When I saw the recent NT production I firstly sat there in great irritation that they had rearranged the order of the scenes in Act I. My motto is: 'If you don't trust the material, don't do the show!' Most legendary iconic Broadway musicals don't need fixing, especially if they originally ran for 1,925 performances. Having said that, I really wanted to give Nellie Forbush a good slap in Act II, just I always want to slap Pamina in Act II of The Magic Flute. Please forgive me ladies, but that's just my reaction. I hope I would be just as annoyed if it was a man being that silly. Can anybody think of equivalent situations involving male characters in a musical or an opera? Anyway, after my annoyance at finding the first act rearranged, I was then struck in the second act as to how much it stopped being a musical and became a war-time play.
I have of course seen the movie, which I feel melds that war action scenes more successfully with the earlier scenes, but the somewhat surreal use of colour washes makes it hard for me to take seriously. None of this takes away from the achievement of Rodgers and Hammerstein in creating a fabulous score and maybe a proper concert performance by John Wilson without staging might make me happy!
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Post by loureviews on Sept 26, 2017 20:28:32 GMT
Some thoughts about Cole Porter, who is a close cousin to our own Noel Coward (and I love Coward).
'Anything Goes' and 'Kiss Me Kate' are probably the first musicals that come to mind from a stage/screen perspective, but he was also responsible for the majestical "Miss Otis Regrets" (Kirsty McColl did a knock-out version live back in the 90s, and of course there's the more traditional version by the vastly underrated Ethel Waters). 'Anything Goes' made a star of Ethel Merman, and we'll get back in her in later posts, I'm sure.
'Can-Can', 'Silk Stockings', and 'Dubarry Was a Lady' were all filmed but with limited success (my favourite of the trio is 'Silk Stockings', with its naughty "All of You" and playful "Satin and Silk"). "Well, Did You Evah?" was written for Dubarry but appeared in 'High Society', which also boasted "True Love", "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire" and "I Love You, Samantha" which was a huge popular hit for Kenny Ball and his Jazzmen.
What else was Cole's? "My Heart Belongs To Daddy" which Mary Martin, Pat Kirkwood, and Marilyn Monroe all made their own. "I've Got You Under My Skin", never better than by the Chairman of the Board. "Begin The Beguine" (Fred and Eleanor in 'Broadway Melody of 1940', dancing on that shiny floor). "You Do Something To Me" (glorious by Marlene in old age). "Just One Of Those Things" (here are five diverse interpretations for you; Doris Day, Maurice Chevalier, Diana Krall, Ella Fitzgerald, and my favourite, Peggy Lee).
I feel he's been neglected in recent years, and that's a shame. He was funny, astute, and his songs are timeless.
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Post by Dawnstar on Sept 26, 2017 20:55:43 GMT
Nice to hear from Dawnstar and loureviews. Despite its wonderful score, I find South Pacific hard to take. I had seen it onstage only once before, which was the original Australian production back in the very early 1950s and I remember nothing about it although I can still see every scene in Annie Get Your Gun and Kiss Me, Kate from a few years earlier. When I saw the recent NT production I firstly sat there in great irritation that they had rearranged the order of the scenes in Act I. My motto is: 'If you don't trust the material, don't do the show!' Most legendary iconic Broadway musicals don't need fixing, especially if they originally ran for 1,925 performances. Having said that, I really wanted to give Nellie Forbush a good slap in Act II, just I always want to slap Pamina in Act II of The Magic Flute. Please forgive me ladies, but that's just my reaction. I hope I would be just as annoyed if it was a man being that silly. Can anybody think of equivalent situations involving male characters in a musical or an opera? Anyway, after my annoyance at finding the first act rearranged, I was then struck in the second act as to how much it stopped being a musical and became a war-time play. I have of course seen the movie, which I feel melds that war action scenes more successfully with the earlier scenes, but the somewhat surreal use of colour washes makes it hard for me to take seriously. None of this takes away from the achievement of Rodgers and Hammerstein in creating a fabulous score and maybe a proper concert performance by John Wilson without staging might make me happy! I saw the film of South Pacific years before seeing it onstage & was therefore slightly confused by the scenes in Act 1 of the stage version, especially at the start, with the stage version having much less preliminary scene-setting than the film. Not equivalent situations but I usually want to slap Rudolfo in Act 3 of Boheme & Calaf in Act 3 of Turandot.
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Post by tonyloco on Sept 26, 2017 23:44:43 GMT
Not equivalent situations but I usually want to slap Rudolfo in Act 3 of Boheme & Calaf in Act 3 of Turandot. I'm not sure about Rodolfo: I have always thought there were faults on both sides and he and Mimì were sadly just not particularly compatible despite the love between them. I agree Calaf definitely needs a slap but why wait until Act 3? Better at the end of Act 1 when he strikes the gong – it's him who should be struck, and hard!
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Post by tmesis on Sept 27, 2017 6:15:35 GMT
I'd kinda like to slap Pinkerton in Butterfly but I suppose that's a bit obvious!
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