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Post by The Matthew on Apr 11, 2022 14:24:45 GMT
Architects, who may be young, able-bodied men with bladders of steel, that rarely go to the theatre, and definitely haven't worked in one, can't imagine that anyone else's toilet needs are different to their own, or that their brilliant innovation is fatally flawed. It's the architect's job to understand how their designs will be used. That's the whole point of having architects.
I think it's far more likely that the reason toilet facilities are frequently inadequate is because they're not revenue-generating space. Every bit of floor space used for toilets is floor space that isn't available for seating or retail or advertising. Any architect who's ever been desperate to relieve themselves would probably love to provide an entire floor of toilets, but when the client is paying them to provide the absolute minimum facilities permitted by law then that's what they have to do.
That's how we ended up with those terrifying toilets that are stainless steel bowls with two narrow strips of decaying wood screwed to the top. It's not because someone thought that was a good design for a toilet. It's because the client said "minimum cost no matter what".
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Post by jojo on Apr 11, 2022 14:38:06 GMT
That's a fair point. Good architects make the point of fully exploring the clients' needs, but as you say, the person paying the bills is their actual client, and if they want to keep costs low, then that's what they'll do.
But in my experience, not all architects do fully consider the needs of all building users, nor do they adequately challenge their clients when they set unreasonable parameters, and too many people doing procurement make the mistake of thinking the person with the cheapest design is the one with their best interests at heart.
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Post by kathryn on Apr 11, 2022 16:14:14 GMT
. Every bit of floor space used for toilets is floor space that isn't available for seating or retail or advertising.. [/div][/quote] No reason why advertising couldn’t be in the loos. After all - captive audience! Everyone’s going to be staring at particular patches of wall at some point!
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Post by interval99 on Apr 11, 2022 18:34:48 GMT
[/div][/quote] No reason why advertising couldn’t be in the loos. After all - captive audience! Everyone’s going to be staring at particular patches of wall at some point! [/quote] Learn something new, it's sounds like the great advertising posters have not hit the ladies yet while they are way too frequent in the gents to the extent you have to try and ensure you are at least standing in front of an advert for cars or insurance and not one advertising Viagra, tena for men or a warning poster advising you how men are at risk of medical issues in all sorts of body areas you don't want to think about while trying to pee.
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Post by sph on Apr 11, 2022 21:48:34 GMT
To be fair, a lot of theatre bars are quite cramped with long queues at the interval too.
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Post by ceebee on Dec 9, 2022 8:52:44 GMT
I saw this again tonight (first saw it with Eddie Redmayne shortly after it opened) and was mostly pleased by the changes. I thought Callum Scott Howells was excellent (he had a strong singing voice and made a very chilling and believable transition to a Nazi clone) as was Madeline Brewer. I wasn't as thrilled with Vivien Parry as Fraulein Schneider,but can't put my finger on why. I just thought Liza Sadovy was much better. Less pleasing than the performances were the audience reactions in a couple of spots. When Ms. Brewer was still finishing her very emotional, tormented rendition of 'Cabaret', a woman behind me seemed to take the song as inspiring life advice and let out a loud "woo!!!" at a pause in the song. And during the Kristallnacht scene, lots of the audience was laughing when the blackout lifted and the debris was falling. I can only assume they were younger people who didn't know about Kristallnacht, and didn't get the tie between the stomped wedding glass and the shattered glass of Herr Schultz's store windows. 'Tomorrow Belongs to Me' created an awkward ending for Act 1. It felt inappropriate to applaud it, and I ended up not expressing my appreciation for the performances in the first act. (I don't remember this from my first visit, so don't know if that's a change or not.) Also, if anyone is considering the Green Bar meal package, it's a bit of a hassle to get from your meal down to your seat (they suggest you arrive for dinner at 6:45 pm, and you really should start for your show seat by 7:15, especially if you want to visit the toilets first). And it's another hassle to get back up to the bar for your second drink, ice cream and macaron, then back to your seat in the 20-minute interval. Next time, I'd opt for the sandwich box and drinks at a table in the stalls. The toilets are somewhat vaguely signed, as one is marked 'urinals' in some places, but the door itself simply says '4 cubicles, 8 urinals', but it's basically the men's room. The ladies' sign says "Toilets" and the door says '8 cubicles'. (There was a similar situation at the Old Vic the other night, with most women asking a nearby usher if 'x cubicles' meant it was the ladies' toilet.) One more thing I didn't notice the first time is that the tiny drink shelves at the stalls seats are at just the right height for people to brush drinks and bottles off as they try to squeeze past to their own seats. And at the end of the show, a drink spilled in the balcony above me dripped onto my head and coat. But I really enjoyed the show and am glad I went again. Sorry to only quote on the toilet element of your excellent post, but I just wanted to throw my tuppence in and say it's high time that theatres stopped pratting about with the toilets and disempowering women, by reinstating loos for the majority and retaining proportional facilities for those who identify differently. Whether woke folk like it or not, the vast majority of audiences identify as male or female and wish to use facilities that are badged accordingly. I'm getting a little fed up playing the game of "hunt the women's loo" for my daughters (11/14) who should not have to share their loos with men. I'm all for ensuring access to all but not at the cost of access for the majority, and particularly for young ladies who are at a sensitive stage of their lives.
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Post by kyvai on Dec 9, 2022 19:38:52 GMT
I don’t care what anyones gender is either, I couldn’t be less interested, but I do really need single sex toilets for a venue to be comfortably accessible to me. Many people do. The reason is no one’s business really - it may be due to religious belief, history of trauma, whatever - but no one should be made to feel like an old fashioned bigot for not wanting to share toilet facilities with people of the opposite sex, it is absolutely no comment on anyone’s gender identity. Venues are actually making spaces less accessible by only offering unisex facilities. It’s perfectly possible to offer female, male, and unisex facilities, to cater for everyone’s needs with no judgement on the reason for those needs, nor judgement on anyones thoughts around their own or anyone else’s gender.
I find the toilet situation at the Playhouse difficult, and ended up having to use a toilet with urinals in it due to urgency (medical issue as well, lucky me) and being quite uncomfortable and distressed about it to be honest. It was a big dint in an otherwise lovely evening.
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Post by gmoneyoutlaw on Dec 9, 2022 20:08:03 GMT
I did not use the toilets at the Playhouse but want to chime in about toilets.
I got to far more shows in NYC than London. If you are looking for disabled toilets in London I was just wonder if there is a guide somewhere online. Not that I need it, but I have noticed that for Broadway Theatres there must be a renovation law that requires the theatre owners to install a disabled toilet. If you are the August Wilson Theatre it's essential as originally all the toilets are located in the lobby bar about 12 steps down from the entrance. The side entrance has a ramp and that were the disabled toilet is and it's very spacious and single use. At the Majestic the same has happened and installed decades ago. For the Biltmore the toilet is on the opposite side of the box office and was probably the theatre manager office at one time.
One of my favorites for the sharing of toilets is at the Al Hirshfeld Theatre where you will see a sign at the men's room door that the first 5 minutes of the intermission the men's room is unisex. "Ladies first?" but only for 5 minutes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2022 3:51:44 GMT
I don’t care what anyones gender is either, I couldn’t be less interested, but I do really need single sex toilets for a venue to be comfortably accessible to me. Many people do. The reason is no one’s business really - it may be due to religious belief, history of trauma, whatever - but no one should be made to feel like an old fashioned bigot for not wanting to share toilet facilities with people of the opposite sex, it is absolutely no comment on anyone’s gender identity. Venues are actually making spaces less accessible by only offering unisex facilities. It’s perfectly possible to offer female, male, and unisex facilities, to cater for everyone’s needs with no judgement on the reason for those needs, nor judgement on anyones thoughts around their own or anyone else’s gender. I find the toilet situation at the Playhouse difficult, and ended up having to use a toilet with urinals in it due to urgency (medical issue as well, lucky me) and being quite uncomfortable and distressed about it to be honest. It was a big dint in an otherwise lovely evening. If you're in a stall, with a locked door, there is absolutely no reason you cannot share a SINK with someone of the opposite sex. I say this as a victim of serious sexual assault. Go sit on your toilet and get on with your night. Why are you so obsessed with who is in the stall next to you? And if you can't sit in a stall without who is wondering in the stall next to you, you care what their gender is.
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Post by ceebee on Dec 10, 2022 7:22:24 GMT
I don’t care what anyones gender is either, I couldn’t be less interested, but I do really need single sex toilets for a venue to be comfortably accessible to me. Many people do. The reason is no one’s business really - it may be due to religious belief, history of trauma, whatever - but no one should be made to feel like an old fashioned bigot for not wanting to share toilet facilities with people of the opposite sex, it is absolutely no comment on anyone’s gender identity. Venues are actually making spaces less accessible by only offering unisex facilities. It’s perfectly possible to offer female, male, and unisex facilities, to cater for everyone’s needs with no judgement on the reason for those needs, nor judgement on anyones thoughts around their own or anyone else’s gender. I find the toilet situation at the Playhouse difficult, and ended up having to use a toilet with urinals in it due to urgency (medical issue as well, lucky me) and being quite uncomfortable and distressed about it to be honest. It was a big dint in an otherwise lovely evening. If you're in a stall, with a locked door, there is absolutely no reason you cannot share a SINK with someone of the opposite sex. I say this as a victim of serious sexual assault. Go sit on your toilet and get on with your night. Why are you so obsessed with who is in the stall next to you? And if you can't sit in a stall without who is wondering in the stall next to you, you care what their gender is. A pretty naive comment which I will be sure to pass on to my daughters, one of whom's best friend identifies as a boy. Young ladies - bodies changing - periods - teenage anxieties. It's not unusual for people of all ages to want a safe space, and this is less to do with gender specificity and much more to the absolute degradation and declassification of women's rights. For the 1% for whom all this nonsense matters, good luck to you. The real issues are being ignored in favour of a vocal minority. I speak as a male who can pee anywhere but is frankly outraged by the trampling of women's rights just to satisfy the wokerati. If gender isn't such a big deal then why declassify toilets? Why can't those claiming fluidity/ambivalence/indifference simply ignore the badge on the door and carry out their ablutions? Because in doing so, it takes away the shallow arguments around identity and their very raison d'etre. Meanwhile, women of all ages, shapes and sizes subsequently face an unnecessary risk through the unintended consequences of giving any miscreant Tom, Dick or Harriet the licence to crash genderless loos willy-nilly and do their thing. And where there is a trough of urinals, should any woman or girl really have to walk past that in order to use a cubicle, just because the door badge makes it a free for all? Sorry to hear you've been a victim in the past but for that very reason I would expect greater empathy and awareness.
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Post by ceebee on Dec 10, 2022 8:40:11 GMT
If the toilets discussion is going to continue, I wonder if Mods might move it to its own thread? I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't already one. Apologies for taking the thread off track.
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Post by kit66 on Dec 10, 2022 9:53:14 GMT
Went to the Barbican for the first time in 10 years to see My Neighbour Toroto and that must have been the last time they had cleaned the loos.Once I had made my ways down to the bowels of the earth (appropriate) I had forgotten how disgusting they are with doors that are wharped and can't close, blocked toilets,taps and hand fans not working,sinks blocked and out of action and the eye watering smell of urine.I don't care what's on in the future.I'm NEVER going back to that venue!
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Dec 10, 2022 9:58:32 GMT
I went into a unisex toilet the other day (the only one available, and marked solely as unisex) and there was a urinal directly by the door at right angles to the door. If the urinal had been in use, and a child entered, they’d basically get a dick in the face. I don’t think little girls should have naked penises right in front of their faces without warning. Or adult women for that matter.
Besides it seems like the rush to unisex is just a way to keep transwomen out of women’s toilets. Not very “woke” is it?
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Post by cavocado on Dec 10, 2022 10:30:33 GMT
I don’t care what anyones gender is either, I couldn’t be less interested, but I do really need single sex toilets for a venue to be comfortably accessible to me. Many people do. The reason is no one’s business really - it may be due to religious belief, history of trauma, whatever - but no one should be made to feel like an old fashioned bigot for not wanting to share toilet facilities with people of the opposite sex, it is absolutely no comment on anyone’s gender identity. Venues are actually making spaces less accessible by only offering unisex facilities. It’s perfectly possible to offer female, male, and unisex facilities, to cater for everyone’s needs with no judgement on the reason for those needs, nor judgement on anyones thoughts around their own or anyone else’s gender. I find the toilet situation at the Playhouse difficult, and ended up having to use a toilet with urinals in it due to urgency (medical issue as well, lucky me) and being quite uncomfortable and distressed about it to be honest. It was a big dint in an otherwise lovely evening. If you're in a stall, with a locked door, there is absolutely no reason you cannot share a SINK with someone of the opposite sex. I say this as a victim of serious sexual assault. Go sit on your toilet and get on with your night. Why are you so obsessed with who is in the stall next to you? And if you can't sit in a stall without who is wondering in the stall next to you, you care what their gender is. I'm glad to hear that your experience hasn't made it difficult for you to use unisex loos, but that doesn't mean you can speak for other women. I've also experienced sexual assault and I feel very uncomfortable in mixed sex loos, to the point that I will just not use them or look for facilities in other buildings. It's all been said before, but here we go... Public loos are not always crowded, sometimes you're in there with just one or two other people, in an enclosed, unstaffed place, often in a fairly remote area. If you're a woman who has reason to feel nervous around men you don't know, unisex facilities like that can be frightening or just very uncomfortable. There are also women who won't use them for religious reasons, or because they don't feel comfortable dealing with periods or medical needs with men around. I also know women and girls who've been photographed in loos which have gaps under/over the doors or walls. It's just patronising and insulting to say that women who prefer single sex facilities are 'obsessed with who is in the stall next to you'. Single sex spaces are protected in law because there is a need to protect women's safety, privacy and dignity in a culture where misogyny, abuse, threats and violence against women are commonplace. Don't suggest it's about women being over-fussy, when this is actually a rational response to knowing that some men are abusive and violent. Theatres, as a service industry, need to provide facilities that their customers want and feel comfortable with. Look at the queues outside 'urinals' and 'cubicles' and it seems pretty clear what most customers want - women will get in a long queue for the former women's toilets rather than use the couple of cubicles in the old gents. Of course some theatres have limited space and can't make many changes, but some of the theatres criticised for this (like the Old Vic and Donmar) have done big refurbs and could easily have put in three different loos - men, women and unisex - and met everyone's needs. If that can't be done, then surely you retain single sex spaces for women and make the men's loos mixed. I know that isn't ideal for all men, but it seems to be the least worst option in terms of public safety and customer wishes.
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Post by bimse on Dec 10, 2022 13:01:31 GMT
“If that can't be done, then surely you retain single sex spaces for women and make the men's loos mixed. I know that isn't ideal for all men, but it seems to be the least worst option in terms of public safety and customer wishes.”
Why is this “least worst option” ok ? Why is it ok for men to have to search for a single sex loo , or not go at all, if it’s not ok for women? Totally unjustifiable . I would not be comfortable using a urinal next to women queuing for a cubicle , embarrassing all round , and especially this is potentially a dangerous situation for women . I’m afraid I’m at an age where I can’t , for example , have to leave a theatre and search for the nearest pub to use the loo. This mad idea is causing unnecessary inequalities and putting women in danger.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2022 21:20:40 GMT
Trans women are over 4x more likely to experience violence than cis women. Go to the bathroom. Sit in the stall. Do your business. Wash your hands. Get on with your day.
The bigotry is repugnant.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Dec 10, 2022 21:42:58 GMT
Trans women are over 4x more likely to experience violence than cis women. Go to the bathroom. Sit in the stall. Do your business. Wash your hands. Get on with your day. The bigotry is repugnant. Banning trans women from ladies rooms (which is exactly what the rush towards gender neutral does) isn’t exactly reducing violence and bigotry towards trans women. Rates of sexual and physical assault are massively higher in gender neutral bathrooms than in single gender ones.
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Post by ceebee on Dec 10, 2022 21:51:21 GMT
Trans women are over 4x more likely to experience violence than cis women. Go to the bathroom. Sit in the stall. Do your business. Wash your hands. Get on with your day. The bigotry is repugnant. My daughters are not old enough to be bigoted. They just feel uncomfortable sharing loos with men. The solution is that the minority groups play hunt the loo rather than shoehorn the majority into an awkward compromise and at potential risk of a perverts paradise.
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Post by stagedoorsally on Dec 10, 2022 22:20:08 GMT
I don’t actually mind unisex loos if they’re done well - I used some yesterday with floor to ceiling walls and doors and a sink in each cubicle, which were fine - but, as a woman, I do not want to be walking past people using urinals (and I’m sure most men don’t want women or girls walking past them when doing their business).
If the powers that be insist on making everything unisex, cubicles only please!
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Post by sph on Dec 11, 2022 5:33:05 GMT
I suppose if you're going to have unisex toilets, which I'm fine with, the best course of action is to get rid of the urinals and just have cubicles all round for everyone. That way everyone has their own private space, regardless of sex, gender or anything.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2022 6:42:53 GMT
Rates of sexual and physical assault are massively higher in gender neutral bathrooms than in single gender ones.
I would love to learn more about this and it sound like you might know of a study or research that I could read given the statistic you cite.
If you can easily provide a link that would be appreciated as my online sleuthing primarily produced studies about gender-inclusive bathrooms in school buildings.
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Post by cavocado on Dec 11, 2022 9:19:48 GMT
I don't know if it's been mentioned on this thread before, but one theatre which I think has got the unisex loos right is the Turbine Theatre in Battersea. They have a long row of cubicles with sinks and floor to ceiling walls and doors, and no communal area, just a corridor.
That is the only place I can think of (not just theatres) where designers have thought about it carefully and met everyone's needs for dignity, safety and privacy, rather than just slapping 'cubicles' and 'urinals' stickers over existing single sex provision and pretending it's progressive rather than just the latest version of patriarchal coercion of women.
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Post by showoff on Dec 11, 2022 18:18:26 GMT
Trans women are over 4x more likely to experience violence than cis women. Go to the bathroom. Sit in the stall. Do your business. Wash your hands. Get on with your day. The bigotry is repugnant. Where are these statistics though? Because pretty much every woman I know has experienced violence (male violence). It's not bigotry to worry about any man being in the same space where women are automatically vulnerable. This is the thing, you shut down anyone's concern with cries of bigotry and it's not. Opening all women up to abuse so you don't appear bigoted is not the answer to it.
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Post by showoff on Dec 11, 2022 18:22:55 GMT
I don’t care what anyones gender is either, I couldn’t be less interested, but I do really need single sex toilets for a venue to be comfortably accessible to me. Many people do. The reason is no one’s business really - it may be due to religious belief, history of trauma, whatever - but no one should be made to feel like an old fashioned bigot for not wanting to share toilet facilities with people of the opposite sex, it is absolutely no comment on anyone’s gender identity. Venues are actually making spaces less accessible by only offering unisex facilities. It’s perfectly possible to offer female, male, and unisex facilities, to cater for everyone’s needs with no judgement on the reason for those needs, nor judgement on anyones thoughts around their own or anyone else’s gender. I find the toilet situation at the Playhouse difficult, and ended up having to use a toilet with urinals in it due to urgency (medical issue as well, lucky me) and being quite uncomfortable and distressed about it to be honest. It was a big dint in an otherwise lovely evening. If you're in a stall, with a locked door, there is absolutely no reason you cannot share a SINK with someone of the opposite sex. I say this as a victim of serious sexual assault. Go sit on your toilet and get on with your night. Why are you so obsessed with who is in the stall next to you? And if you can't sit in a stall without who is wondering in the stall next to you, you care what their gender is. Is it your place to dismiss every persons concern? I recently had a really horrible experience at the Barbican Centre where a guy followed me into the disabled toilets and was acting so strangely and aggressive, as a victim of sexual assault it made me go cold. When I was in there with a locked door he was in the communal space and wouldn't even leave me alone then. There was nobody else around in that area, I had to text my friend to come to the toilet to meet me and so there was someone else there. It's not yours or anyone's place to dismiss other women and the fact they don't want to be in the area of a toilet with a man in the name of progress. And I say all of this as a queer woman.
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Post by kathryn on Dec 11, 2022 19:17:20 GMT
Trans women are over 4x more likely to experience violence than cis women. Go to the bathroom. Sit in the stall. Do your business. Wash your hands. Get on with your day. The bigotry is repugnant. ‘Gender-neutral’ toilets are a stupid idea if violence is the concern, because the source of the violence is men!! ‘Gender-neutral’ toilets are actually just mixed-sex - everyone gets exposed to potential violence! It does not reduce the risk for anyone. Trans women are still at risk, and women are also exposed to an increased risk and lose their privacy, dignity and comfort into the bargain. Which tells you that the ‘violence!’ argument is a red herring. It’s not really about that. It’s about a weird desire to break down the social barriers we have around the sexes, to pretend that it’s all ‘socially constructed’.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Dec 11, 2022 19:31:23 GMT
In my simple world, if a toilet has open urinals it is not gender neutral no matter what symbols you put on the door.
As stated above a gender-neutral toilet has to have independent cubicles, I am tired of seeing the surprised expression of the women when they enter often followed by a swift retreat especially if it requires waiting in a queue for the couple of cubicles even the men are wary of using in what in the past would have been considered the gents.
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Post by cezbear on Dec 12, 2022 8:15:18 GMT
It's really easy to just shout 'bigots' or 'transphobes' and not engage further. Takes seconds. Perhaps it takes a little more effort to spend time reading through people's reasons for not wanting a shared space, and some empathy for them. Nothing is black and white, we just don't need to say 'the only right way to think is X and if you don't then you're a hateful bigot'. Where does that allow for any nuance? If we take the time to listen to people on all 'sides' instead of shutting them down we'll have much less division.
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Post by d'James on Mar 31, 2023 0:42:14 GMT
Wow. The Turbine Theatre is a toilet disaster area. 4/6 able bodied toilets out of order and one of the two that were working that I used was filthy with a broken seat.
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Post by shady23 on Mar 31, 2023 18:34:16 GMT
I hate the upper level ladies toilets in the Duke of York's theatre. I am not sure if they are the same elsewhere in the venue. Double opening doors with a strange hook thing to close them in the middle. Any larger lady just is not going to be able to get in there. The layout of the bins, dryers is also all wrong and you just cannot move.
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Post by marob on Mar 31, 2023 19:23:17 GMT
I recently used a cubicle in the downstairs gents at the Liverpool Empire. Toilet seat was broken. Then the handle on the loo was pretty loose and had to be wiggled around until you could feel some resistance to actually be able flush it. I’m not sure how I got in in the first place, because to get out there wasn’t enough room to open the door, had to stand to one side of the toilet and then clamber over it. And then there was only one working hand dryer.
Good old ATG, never fail to disappoint. Next time I just used the loos in Lime Street Station next door.
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