562 posts
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Post by jadnoop on Apr 28, 2017 15:36:19 GMT
I would truly love for someone to explain to me why re-interpretation of a text is always hailed as 'dumbing down' when it comes to Shakespeare. I can't help but think that the man who borrowed from 100s of sources directly and clearly took on the trends and influences of his own time wouldn't, if presented with a Tardis say 'Aye well done I'd never have thought of doing it this way' and sat back and enjoyed the performance. And also if we are playing by the rules of 'as it was handed down to us' why has a woman ever been allowed to set foot on stage at The Globe then for a start? Exactly this. When people argue for art to be left as it was, what they really mean is for it to be left as I remember it. Until the Doctor does come to visit us, all we really have is different subjective opinions of how much change is acceptable. ...not to mention that -since the act of viewing something will alter it- if we did get to travel back in time to see Shakespeare's plays in the original time and place, our being there may well alter things anyway. (when a silly time-traveller accidentally leaves his ipod behind perhaps modern hip hop lyrics will find their way into shakespeare's texts).
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Post by Honoured Guest on Apr 28, 2017 15:38:36 GMT
Another year where I will completely avoid The Globe then by the sounds of it... Why not see Daniel Kramer's new production and then share your reaction to it?
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2,706 posts
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 28, 2017 15:39:07 GMT
This probably isn't my cup of tea and the reviews seem fairly brutal so far, but with such a divisive approach as this I wonder how helpful some of these reviews really are. What I mean is that this sort of OTT/raucous treatment of Shakespeare seems is always going to be polarising, so a one star review from someone who hates this kind of thing anyway might be more of a reflection of the reviewer than the show. Like reading a review of a heavy metal album from someone who only likes classical music. One star reviews are great, they often make me want to see something if I think the reviewer has an agenda.
So here we are. The country is hopelessly divided, anger characterises everyday discourse and many people have just about had enough and so want to f*ck over the establishment. It happened with Brexit and increasingly with nascent 'resistance' movements against a perceived elitist society, where the past is held up as golden, meaning that a younger generation's future is fast disappearing over the horizon in a haze of Mcjobs, no prospect of owning a home and with an ossified bunch of baby boomers clinging onto the power that they always had etc. (phew!)
Time to make theatre a part of that Mr Billington (and Hitchings and Cavendish et al)?
Also, has nobody ever seen a Kramer show, his Woyzeck took the play and stamped all over it until it squealed? Rice's theatre background is imbued with her experience in Poland, but everyone hates the Poles here don't they? So, you know.....
Let's do this.
At the moment, I go home, put on a Sonic Youth CD, turn it up (no neighbours close, don't worry) and let it wash over me, otherwise I might just end up screaming.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:40:18 GMT
I would truly love for someone to explain to me why re-interpretation of a text is always hailed as 'dumbing down' when it comes to Shakespeare. I can't help but think that the man who borrowed from 100s of sources directly and clearly took on the trends and influences of his own time wouldn't, if presented with a Tardis say 'Aye well done I'd never have thought of doing it this way' and sat back and enjoyed the performance. And also if we are playing by the rules of 'as it was handed down to us' why has a woman ever been allowed to set foot on stage at The Globe then for a start? I would argue that the introduction of women to the stage benefitted society but littering Romeo and Juliet with, according to the reviews, cock jokes probably isn't.
Of course we should be trying to turn youngsters on to Shakespeare and of course it won't always be as the previous generation(s) would like it but surely we have the responsibility to say when changes and approaches have gone too far?
Shakespeare plays are LITTERED with cock jokes - and he loved a cock-related pun on his name. Shaking his spear all over the place, he was. I'm starting to wonder if you've actually seen any Shakespeare or understood what you saw.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 28, 2017 15:40:37 GMT
Yowser. I know this is all just friendly discussions, but this must win the prize for the most oversimplified and aggressively elitist comment of the day. Nothing elitist about it at all.
There are plenty of youngsters out there who are capable of being exposed to adult Shakespeare and developing a love of his works, harbour a love of them in their hearts and minds and become custodians of our heritage.
However, this is aimed at yoofs who struggle to concentrate beyond a 140 character message and think Skepta is a genius...
Big difference.
I have no idea what/who Skepta is.
Am I missing out?
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Post by iamian on Apr 28, 2017 15:40:47 GMT
I don't think anyone is seriously saying that Shakespeare shouldn't be reinterpreted and reworked but, when you have spent years(and millions of pounds) recreating an authentic Elizabethan theatre maybe that isn't the place for radical reworking of the plays. London is not short of venues where that type of production would fit. There is the Young Vic, the Barbican, the Almeida and the West End for those kind of productions and if a new production attracts a younger audience then that will lead to them seeking out more traditional productions. The Globe was built as a traditional space and people went to a huge amount of effort and expense to give people an authentic experience.
Also, don't sneer at a younger generations music, it makes you sound like someone from the local council talking about the Sex Pistols in the 70's. I am not Skepta's audience but lyrically I think he is interesting and is speaking for a group of kids that I have no direct contact with but I'd be more interested in his take on Romeo & Juliet than this one
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117 posts
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Post by edmundokeano on Apr 28, 2017 15:43:01 GMT
I would argue that the introduction of women to the stage benefitted society but littering Romeo and Juliet with, according to the reviews, cock jokes probably isn't.
Of course we should be trying to turn youngsters on to Shakespeare and of course it won't always be as the previous generation(s) would like it but surely we have the responsibility to say when changes and approaches have gone too far?
Shakespeare plays are LITTERED with cock jokes - and he loved a cock-related pun on his name. Shaking his spear all over the place, he was. I'm starting to wonder if you've actually seen any Shakespeare or understood what you saw. Puns are clever though...
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562 posts
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Post by jadnoop on Apr 28, 2017 15:43:53 GMT
I would truly love for someone to explain to me why re-interpretation of a text is always hailed as 'dumbing down' when it comes to Shakespeare. I can't help but think that the man who borrowed from 100s of sources directly and clearly took on the trends and influences of his own time wouldn't, if presented with a Tardis say 'Aye well done I'd never have thought of doing it this way' and sat back and enjoyed the performance. And also if we are playing by the rules of 'as it was handed down to us' why has a woman ever been allowed to set foot on stage at The Globe then for a start? I would argue that the introduction of women to the stage benefitted society but littering Romeo and Juliet with, according to the reviews, cock jokes probably isn't.
Of course we should be trying to turn youngsters on to Shakespeare and of course it won't always be as the previous generation(s) would like it but surely we have the responsibility to say when changes and approaches have gone too far?
The problem is, I suspect, that while it's easy to say "we have the responsibility to say when changes ... have gone too far." the people going through that change aren't always best placed to make the call of whether something is 'too much' or not. After all, very few people nowadays would suggest that giving women the vote was a bad thing, but it's not as though everyone at the time thought it was a great idea for society. (I'm not trying to suggest that a more radical appraoch to Shakespeare is akin to the women's suffrage)
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Post by edmundokeano on Apr 28, 2017 15:47:17 GMT
Nothing elitist about it at all.
There are plenty of youngsters out there who are capable of being exposed to adult Shakespeare and developing a love of his works, harbour a love of them in their hearts and minds and become custodians of our heritage.
However, this is aimed at yoofs who struggle to concentrate beyond a 140 character message and think Skepta is a genius...
Big difference.
I have no idea what/who Skepta is.
Am I missing out?
If you want to hear lyrics which are misogynistic, homophobic, encourage drug taking and violence then he's your man...
We live in a World where people who will criticise anyone who dare defends the protection of heritage will also be happy to defend such "artists"...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:48:18 GMT
Shakespeare plays are LITTERED with cock jokes - and he loved a cock-related pun on his name. Shaking his spear all over the place, he was. I'm starting to wonder if you've actually seen any Shakespeare or understood what you saw. Puns are clever though... Often in Shakespeare they aren't, though - he does really blatant, gratuitous cock jokes aimed squarely at the lowest common denominator! Shakespeare really wasn't high art in his time; the fact that we think of it that way is the original terrible misinterpretation - what you might call 'dumbed down' versions could equally be viewed as going back to the original intention.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:49:23 GMT
(Am I get over-excited? I really need to finish some work before I slope off for the long weekend...)
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117 posts
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Post by edmundokeano on Apr 28, 2017 15:51:12 GMT
I don't think anyone is seriously saying that Shakespeare shouldn't be reinterpreted and reworked but, when you have spent years(and millions of pounds) recreating an authentic Elizabethan theatre maybe that isn't the place for radical reworking of the plays. London is not short of venues where that type of production would fit. There is the Young Vic, the Barbican, the Almeida and the West End for those kind of productions and if a new production attracts a younger audience then that will lead to them seeking out more traditional productions. The Globe was built as a traditional space and people went to a huge amount of effort and expense to give people an authentic experience. Also, don't sneer at a younger generations music, it makes you sound like someone from the local council talking about the Sex Pistols in the 70's. I am not Skepta's audience but lyrically I think he is interesting and is speaking for a group of kids that I have no direct contact with but I'd be more interested in his take on Romeo & Juliet than this one I am continuing my music education the older I get and have a great love for many new bands.
However "music" by Skepta and similar acts - who promote hatred of women and homosexuality - have no place in our society and rather than being encouraged should be tackled.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Apr 28, 2017 15:53:15 GMT
"Do you think I mean country matters?" I mean, how obvious do you need to be? (Also see 'The Country Wife', Restoration theatre would frankly be nothing without overt references to genitalia).
"What, with my tongue in your tail?" Oo-er, very 'Carry On' Mr Petruchio.....
'Much Ado About Nothing' would surely be innocent though if it weren't for the fact that 'Nothing' was used by Elizabethans to refer to a lady's private parts.
So what was that about cock jokes?
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Post by Honoured Guest on Apr 28, 2017 15:53:19 GMT
Let's enjoy the Summer of Love while we have the chance, before the Return of Eternal Night in a year's time.
Edmundokeano said on page 1 that he's not going at all this year so I don't see why he's so bothered anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:53:22 GMT
If you want to hear lyrics which are misogynistic, homophobic, encourage drug taking and violence then he's your man... So a bit like Shakespeare then?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:54:45 GMT
If you want to hear lyrics which are misogynistic, homophobic, encourage drug taking and violence then he's your man... So a bit like Shakespeare then? Boom! Well done, sir.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:55:23 GMT
I can't be bothered to quote and edit quote, it's too late on a Friday (clearly I am a lazy yoof, despite not being a yoof by any stretch)
But yes, you erm beat me to it on the cock joke front (ahem)
Look I get the idea of preservation and historical preservation I really do, in another life I was a history teacher and another an English one, and being able to show people (not just the afore mentioned yoofs) how it 'would have been done' has it's uses sure, but I'd far rather a) productions that get people engaged and talking b) interesting re-interpretations because my God even some of the Bard's best stuff gets tedious in the 20th viewing of a bog-standard re-telling.
To the best of my knowledge The Globe doesn't have in it's consitution that it will be ONLY for faithful re-productions of 'how it was done back then' if it was, and therefore was a museum rather than a working theatre, then this debate would be different.
Also is nobody going to mention the terrifying fact this production is full of Clowns?!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:56:08 GMT
If you want to hear lyrics which are misogynistic, homophobic, encourage drug taking and violence then he's your man... So a bit like Shakespeare then? As the kids say "Mic drop"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:56:33 GMT
"Do you think I mean country matters?" I mean, how obvious do you need to be? (Also see 'The Country Wife', Restoration theatre would frankly be nothing without overt references to genitalia).
"What, with my tongue in your tail?" Oo-er, very 'Carry On' Mr Petruchio.....
'Much Ado About Nothing' would surely be innocent though if it weren't for the fact that 'Nothing' was used by Elizabethans to refer to a lady's private parts.
So what was that about cock jokes?
See also Chaucer with what is generally agreed to be the best arse-kissing joke in English literature.
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Post by edmundokeano on Apr 28, 2017 15:57:51 GMT
If you want to hear lyrics which are misogynistic, homophobic, encourage drug taking and violence then he's your man... So a bit like Shakespeare then? Please, not even in a joke, compare the most important cornerstone of our cultural heritage with such low-life...
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Post by edmundokeano on Apr 28, 2017 15:58:50 GMT
So a bit like Shakespeare then? As the kids say "Mic drop" As a teacher do you think we should be encouraging children to listen to people like Skepta?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 16:03:02 GMT
As the kids say "Mic drop" As a teacher do you think we should be encouraging children to listen to people like Skepta? Well I had to google him, but I think he's a young man doing very well for himself in the music scene, and also bringing an under represented minority music culture to the mainstream. So sure, why not? Also I'm not a teacher any more the clue was in the word 'former'
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Post by iamian on Apr 28, 2017 16:04:42 GMT
As the kids say "Mic drop" As a teacher do you think we should be encouraging children to listen to people like Skepta? OMG you totally would have tried to get the Sex Pistols banned! and calling him 'low life' is starting to stray into some rather unpleasant territory...
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Post by edmundokeano on Apr 28, 2017 16:08:19 GMT
As a teacher do you think we should be encouraging children to listen to people like Skepta? Well I had to google him, but I think he's a young man doing very well for himself in the music scene, and also bringing an under represented minority music culture to the mainstream. So sure, why not? Also I'm not a teacher any more the clue was in the word 'former' So, and correct me if I'm wrong, what you're saying is that you approve of "minority" kids being told that it's ok to be misogynistic, homophobic, violent and taking drugs if they see that a way to be successful?
Never mind that such behaviour is at odds with the liberal views you harbour as long as poor black kids are doing "their thing" it's ok?
Do you not see the hypocrisy? Are you equally defensive of poor white kids who grew up on dead end council estates who got into football violence or are they scum of the earth?
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Post by edmundokeano on Apr 28, 2017 16:09:29 GMT
As a teacher do you think we should be encouraging children to listen to people like Skepta? OMG you totally would have tried to get the Sex Pistols banned! and calling him 'low life' is starting to stray into some rather unpleasant territory... I don't know about you but women haters and homophobic people are low-life in my opinion...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 16:10:41 GMT
Well I had to google him, but I think he's a young man doing very well for himself in the music scene, and also bringing an under represented minority music culture to the mainstream. So sure, why not? Also I'm not a teacher any more the clue was in the word 'former' So, and correct me if I'm wrong, what you're saying is that you approve of "minority" kids being told that it's ok to be misogynistic, homophobic, violent and taking drugs if they see that a way to be successful?
Never mind that such behaviour is at odds with the liberal views you harbour as long as poor black kids are doing "their thing" it's ok?
Do you not see the hypocrisy? Are you equally defensive of poor white kids who grew up on dead end council estates who got into football violence or are they scum of the earth?
Clearly sarcasm passes you by. I said I had no idea who he is, I read his Wikipedia page, unlike you I'm not making an opinion of something or someone without actually engaging with it, so without listening to his music I cannot pass comment. However as pointed out above, the sweeping generalisation about music from a minority group by yourself is skirting into dangerous territory.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Apr 28, 2017 16:13:57 GMT
Skepta's music is critically respected, for example with a Mercury music prize nomination.
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Post by edmundokeano on Apr 28, 2017 16:16:16 GMT
So, and correct me if I'm wrong, what you're saying is that you approve of "minority" kids being told that it's ok to be misogynistic, homophobic, violent and taking drugs if they see that a way to be successful?
Never mind that such behaviour is at odds with the liberal views you harbour as long as poor black kids are doing "their thing" it's ok?
Do you not see the hypocrisy? Are you equally defensive of poor white kids who grew up on dead end council estates who got into football violence or are they scum of the earth?
Clearly sarcasm passes you by. I said I had no idea who he is, I read his Wikipedia page, unlike you I'm not making an opinion of something or someone without actually engaging with it, so without listening to his music I cannot pass comment. However as pointed out above, the sweeping generalisation about music from a minority group by yourself is skirting into dangerous territory. As a PASSIONATE fan of the Blues I know it has nothing to do with race...
These are just criminals with microphones.
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Post by edmundokeano on Apr 28, 2017 16:17:00 GMT
Skepta's music is critically respected, for example with a Mercury music prize nomination. A decision which was ridiculed beyond all belief...
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Post by Honoured Guest on Apr 28, 2017 16:21:52 GMT
Skepta's music is critically respected, for example with a Mercury music prize nomination. A decision which was ridiculed beyond all belief...
... by Edmundokeano and the Board of the Globe?
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